Speeches by Robertson.

“The Government talk about a 20% time saving as a result of no longer using a jury in accordance with the Bill, but the reasons given for curtailing a jury trial are not the same as those that Sir Brian Leveson identified. The Government, and indeed Sir Brian Leveson, talk about jury trials taking longer than they used …”

“I agree with my hon. Friend. Indeed, the Bill will basically lead to a complete lottery in decision making, depending on the judge a person gets on the day. I suspect that judges ordinarily do not like vague law or having to provide their own interpretation. They are usually more comfortable if the statute is more prec…”

“On the figures that are being presented, on the one hand, the Government say that only 3% of criminal trials go to a jury, so this is not a significant change to the criminal courts and jury system in this country. On the other hand, they say that this is so essential, and the situation that we find ourselves in is so …”

“The reasons for a jury trial taking longer than a judge-only trial, including the swearing in of the jury, jury-related issues causing delay and hearing evidence later in the day, are not new. Those are features of jury trials that have existed for a long time, so the inherent delays that can be caused by a jury trial …”

“How long is a piece of string? The unanswerable question. I could ask another question: is a 2-metre piece of string a long piece of string? If I asked you that question, Ms Butler, you would have a lot of questions for me before you gave your answer, yet the Minister thinks it is easy to answer the question, “Is a two…”

“The way my hon. Friend articulates the point suggests that the rules are effectively stripping people of the right to legal aid by pushing them down from a court where they currently qualify into a court where they do not. Is that a fair way to characterise it?”

“Will the hon. Member give way?”

“The central issue here, as with so much of this, is the impact that a single provision, or a single intention—in this case clause 6—has on other areas of the criminal justice system, and indeed provisions in the Bill. There is a lot of interplay between clauses 6 and 7—we are about to discuss clause 7, so I will save m…”

“That is entirely right but, of course, we do not know, because the assessments in respect of the Bill are so light—there is not one on that point. It may or may not at all mean more spending. So many times, the argument on this issue, and on many others, is, “Oh, it doesn’t affect that many cases,” or, “Don’t worry.” W…”

“As my hon. Friend the shadow Minister pointed out, there are a number of problems that not only arise with what clauses 3 and 4 try to do, but carry over to clause 5, which tries to replicate aspects of jury trials in trials that will not be heard by a jury because a judge has made an allocation decision. The problems …”

“I wish to address a number of issues in relation to this grouping. First, I will say something about the figures that have been quoted at length today and in previous sittings. Secondly, I will say something about the reasons given by the Government for curtailing jury trials in this way. Then I want to go on to say so…”

“The Government have said that this is a matter of thresholds and they have cited other democracies and other countries—indeed, other common-law countries that take their legal system from England and Wales. They have said, “If those countries can do without jury trials at this threshold, so can we.” I am not against ha…”

“I recognise evidence, but I give greatest weight to Sir Brian Leveson, the author of the independent report commissioned by the Government. As the hon. Lady knows very well, the youth court is a very different beast, because a different set of principles and rules applies to cross-examination, evidence and so on for pe…”

“Will the Minister give way?”

“I support the position of my hon. Friend the shadow Minister. There is a degree of cross-party support on the Opposition Benches; we heard some very good submissions from the hon. Member for Brighton Pavilion, which seems a while ago now. The Government’s position on many of the contentious issues in Committee has been…”

“It rather looks as though yet again we have a clause that, in the interests of trying to rush through legislation, has not been properly thought out. I cannot believe that the Government intend to introduce such vagueness into law. It is perfectly clear that they are trying to tackle the backlog—I do not criticise them…”

“The Minister said that she effectively, although not exclusively, considers the issue to be lengthy financial documents. If the provision were expanded across sexual offences and others in future, with powers that a theoretical future Secretary of State might want to apply, that untested, unclear issue of complexity wo…”

“I support the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the shadow Minister, which would ensure the right of appeal to a decision whether a trial should be heard by a jury. The Government’s reason for not accepting the amendment, as they have put forward on a number of previous amendments, is the principle of efficiency—that …”

“My hon. Friend the shadow Minister makes a good point, and we will get on to talking about the provisions relating to the family courts. In relation to this particular provision, the family courts are where we have a judge making a decision on very emotive facts and on procedure. But family courts are far more collabor…”

“Amendment 51 seeks to curtail the extension of this clause. I have already spoken about how wide-ranging it is and the wide discretion that it gives judges in making allocation decisions with insufficient legal test, guidance or case law. At least let us leave that as the problem; let us not introduce the potential for…”