Speeches by Robertson.

“I agree with my hon. Friend. Indeed, the Bill will basically lead to a complete lottery in decision making, depending on the judge a person gets on the day. I suspect that judges ordinarily do not like vague law or having to provide their own interpretation. They are usually more comfortable if the statute is more prec…”

“I support the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the shadow Minister, which would ensure the right of appeal to a decision whether a trial should be heard by a jury. The Government’s reason for not accepting the amendment, as they have put forward on a number of previous amendments, is the principle of efficiency—that …”

“On the figures that are being presented, on the one hand, the Government say that only 3% of criminal trials go to a jury, so this is not a significant change to the criminal courts and jury system in this country. On the other hand, they say that this is so essential, and the situation that we find ourselves in is so …”

“To that end, magistrates are better than a judge sitting alone when it comes to making a reasonable assessment of the facts and what may or may not have motivated someone who is defending themselves. Magistrates are a hybrid. They themselves are not legal professionals. They sit in number, more than one of them, and br…”

“None of these criticisms, of course, means that judges in this country are not doing a good job or do not act to the highest standards. Where a higher level of decision making is required and juries do not have a role, such as in the appeals system or the civil court system, then multiple judges sit together. When any …”

“Indeed. Might a judge, halfway through a trial, decide that it has suddenly become inappropriate, having heard whatever formal or informal representations are made on that point? Even if there is some objective consensus about how long an ordinary person in this country should be prepared to set aside to serve on a jur…”

“The Minister talks about the statutory test for complexity, among other things. I cannot identify the statutory test for complexity. Where is the test in the new legislation?”

“Will the Minister give way?”

“I hope the hon. Member for Birmingham Erdington might consider pressing new clause 29 to a vote, because it is good and fair, and it deals with impact—it does not seek to change what the Government are trying to do. There is clearly a debate, and contested views, about the impact on those from minority ethnic backgroun…”

“My hon. Friend the shadow Minister makes a good point, and we will get on to talking about the provisions relating to the family courts. In relation to this particular provision, the family courts are where we have a judge making a decision on very emotive facts and on procedure. But family courts are far more collabor…”

“We traded some figures in previous sittings, and the Minister and I had different figures, but the new clause is about an assessment after the Government’s provisions have come into effect. I do not want them to come in, but the hon. Member for Birmingham Erdington supports them and accepts that they will, and I accept…”

“It rather looks as though yet again we have a clause that, in the interests of trying to rush through legislation, has not been properly thought out. I cannot believe that the Government intend to introduce such vagueness into law. It is perfectly clear that they are trying to tackle the backlog—I do not criticise them…”

“The Minister said that she effectively, although not exclusively, considers the issue to be lengthy financial documents. If the provision were expanded across sexual offences and others in future, with powers that a theoretical future Secretary of State might want to apply, that untested, unclear issue of complexity wo…”

“I accept that judges can do all this, and indeed sometimes do all this. Surely, however, the Minister will accept that, given human nature, there is a limit to the extent to which a human being can be so well trained or so professional that they can simply disregard something that they have heard as though they had nev…”

“I do not understand why the Government would resist having a review and assessment of the real impact on the ground—not a theoretical, projected impact assessment—of the changes. If the hon. Member for Birmingham Erdington is minded to move her new clause, I suspect she would find some support for it.”

“Amendment 51 seeks to curtail the extension of this clause. I have already spoken about how wide-ranging it is and the wide discretion that it gives judges in making allocation decisions with insufficient legal test, guidance or case law. At least let us leave that as the problem; let us not introduce the potential for…”

“The Government and Labour Back Benchers have spoken about the experience of victims and have said that part of the reason for cutting the backlog is to reduce stress on them. There is nothing in this clause to say that the judge might want to consider the impact on victims or complainants when deciding whether to alloc…”

“The central issue here, as with so much of this, is the impact that a single provision, or a single intention—in this case clause 6—has on other areas of the criminal justice system, and indeed provisions in the Bill. There is a lot of interplay between clauses 6 and 7—we are about to discuss clause 7, so I will save m…”

“The Government have said that this is a matter of thresholds and they have cited other democracies and other countries—indeed, other common-law countries that take their legal system from England and Wales. They have said, “If those countries can do without jury trials at this threshold, so can we.” I am not against ha…”

“I agree with my hon. Friend; he actually pre-empts the point I am about to get on to. I thank him for taking me on to that. It should be fairly obvious to most people that there will be a wide range of views as to how much time a person can take out of their ordinary life, bearing in mind that people are not called for…”