Speeches by Mullan.

“On the right to elect, your report—we are not talking about further work that you are not responsible for—says: “It has been assumed that disposals per day in the magistrates’ court are in line with the current average.” So if we change the system, disposals will remain at the current rate. If we are trying more comple…”

“Yes. A whole series of stakeholders were invited by the MOJ and they potentially strongly disagree with your central conclusion of 20%. I have no further questions.”

“Q I will take you through some further questions. Sir Brian Leveson: Fine.”

“Q Are there any lessons that could be drawn out for the rest of the country? You have given us some that you think cannot be. Sir Brian Leveson: Yes, and I have made recommendations. It is critical that the systems join up: the police, the CPS, the defence community, the courts, the judiciary, and the prison and probat…”

“I do not want to assume what you may or may not know about Liverpool, but are you aware that Liverpool does not have a backlog in its courts? Sir Brian Leveson: I am very aware of Liverpool: I am a Liverpudlian. I practised in Liverpool. I know all the judges in Liverpool extremely well. It would be a mistake to think …”

“Q You mentioned that you visited Liverpool. Sir Brian Leveson: Yes.”

“Q As you picked two things that have been agreed, what things that have not been agreed would be on your list of further things that would help? Daniel Flury: On the principal sources of delay, you have mentioned the police and the effectiveness of trials, and we see lots of ineffective trials because of an absence of …”

“Q I want to ask about the process of your review. Did you undertake any visits to Crown courts, and if so, which ones? Sir Brian Leveson: Well, I have been visiting Crown courts for 50 years. I personally visited Liverpool Crown court, and I am sure I went to another Crown court, but my team went a large number of Crow…”

“Q I am Kieran Mullan, the shadow Minister and MP for Bexhill and Battle. I want to take you back to the process of your appointment and ask whether, prior to your appointment, you had any discussions with Ministers or officials about your views on the right to elect and the use of jury trials. Sir Brian Leveson: No, al…”

“Q Okay. This question is more directly about your role. If you were to draw up a list for the Minister of the top five things that you thought would make a big impact on the delays that you are experiencing at HMCTS, what would be the top two, and where would structural reform of the courts, a new court bench, and remo…”

“If they are being given sentences of potentially up three years versus, for example, six months, you do not think that will have any impact on the time, complexity or seriousness of the cases? Sir Brian Leveson: I am not suggesting it will not have any impact; I am suggesting that the time cases take is not necessarily…”

“Q Do you also agree that people who have the interests of victims at the heart of their thinking and positions on this can reasonably oppose your proposals, and that that does not in any way reflect a lack of concern for victims or the experiences they are going through? Sarah Sackman: Of course I do. I have always sai…”

“Q I think the witnesses were in the Public Gallery for the introductions, so I will skip straight to my questions. Claire, you have expressed your support of the structural reforms, including the reduction in access to jury trials. Could you take me through your policy formulation process when making such a decision to…”

“Q I want to move on to the references in your report to the modelling. I have various quotes from part 1 of your report, to refresh your memory of what you said. In paragraph 11, on page 34, you say: “I have no doubt that the MoJ will want and need to conduct more detailed modelling, including through impact assessment…”

“Q Do you think that the Institute for Government’s classification of some of those assumptions as highly uncertain would be a fair classification? Daniel Flury: I would not like to comment on that. The analysis is primarily undertaken by the Ministry of Justice; I am here representing the courts service and the operati…”

“I am really sorry for the experiences that you have had, and certainly for any role that we played in government in not better addressing these delays and the challenges that you faced. The consequences of that are really powerfully illustrated by the things that you have talked about, so thank you for sharing that. I …”

“Q I have asked you twice, and you have given the answer, and people can make up their own minds about what can be implied from that. Moving on to some extent, I can say to you, “This modelling says this,” and you can point to other modelling that says otherwise; I can say that court judge X disagrees with you, and you …”

“Q Okay, so it would be fair to say that your report points to the need to do further modelling, the MOJ has undertaken that modelling, and you reject the modelling that your report says the MOJ needs to undertake to better understand the impact. Sir Brian Leveson: I do not accept that characterisation at all. I believe…”

“Q Sorry, I have just read you a direct quote about them as victims. Do you accept that it is in there? Claire Waxman: You have to read the whole context of the letter—you have pulled out one bit. The whole context of that letter really focuses on listening to women who are wrongly being criminalised, as opposed to vict…”

“Q Sure, but do you think that people might be concerned that you cannot say that no one had any pressure applied to them? Sarah Sackman: What I know is that as a Minister, I seek, along with other Ministers, to set the culture of my Department. We keep the channels of communication open with all the stakeholders that y…”