Speeches by Norman.

“How many civil servants are there in your organisation, Rupert?”

“So the point is, this is really an “in principle” matter. You have not put any numbers around it yet. That is part of the next phase.”

“Pari passu, it would be 5,000, but—”

“How many civil service employees do you have at the moment?”

“It sounds like whistling in the wind by the Treasury, frankly. This does not feel like a real thing, because you have not been adequately consulted, and there is no scale on it. We will have to see.”

“That is nicely put. I am sure you will not want to respond to this, but could you give us some sense of numbers and workforce reduction? Presumably, there will be more people at higher pay, and fewer at lower because of the displacement effect—how is that going?”

“You could get a double.”

“Is it 0.1% additional demand? What level are we talking about?”

“That in and of itself ought to deliver a lot of what the permanent secretary is talking about.”

“It is just slightly odd, because if it is supplying demand alongside sovereign spend, it is astounding to me that it would not have had a closer relationship with your office—the National Armaments Director—because you are deciding how much kit needs to be provided and when, against a particular demand signal. It has n…”

“Because its capabilities and processes start to displace legacy ones that are more—”

“Not military costs, and not non-civil service, non-military workforce costs—is there a non-civil service workforce? I am just trying to work out what you are cutting out.”

“Just a final question, which is that the SDR talked about a commitment to reduce MoD civil service costs by a minimum of 10% by 2030, and to do so by using artificial intelligence and automation. Obviously, the drive for simplicity and accountability is enormously welcome, but can you give us a sense of how that is goi…”

“MDM is the new vehicle.”

“That would include a counter-drone capability, as well as drones.”

“Presumably, you try to indigenise the application of the technology, even if you could not indigenise the core technology, so it became part of our sovereign—”

“So you have not been consulted either.”

“And companies could borrow in order to supply the demands made by MoD for more kit. Is that right?”

“How do you think about foreign companies where we know that the ultimate loyalty of the company will not be to British interests, and where the IP is not held as a sovereign matter in this country?”

“An emphasis for you would be on placing your bets—your investment—as National Armaments Director more on the sovereign side of that equation, if you can, for relevant capability.”