Good afternoon, everybody. Thank you for having us here today. I am James Timpson, the Minister for Prisons, Probation and Reducing Reoffending. I know that is a long job title, but all three things are really important to me. It may be helpful to give the Committee the current state of play, as that is the framing of the question. Every day, we are always aware of capacity, and that has been the main theme running through the last nearly 18 months of this Parliament. That is why the Sentencing Bill, which is now going through the House of Lords, is so important, because we need to have a sustainable justice system. The only way we can do that is to build more prison places, which we are doing. There will be more people in prison than ever before by the end of this Parliament. There will also be more people in probation than ever before. If you look at the overall picture, prisons today are 97.8% full. Given where we were, that is a much more helpful area to be in, but it still means that a number of our prisons are still looking for cells and running them very hot. We need to have a long-term plan, which we have, but we also need a long-term plan for probation as well. If we want fewer victims in the future, we need to make sure that both our prisons and probation service run effectively hand in glove. All roads lead back to probation. That is why, as part of the spending review, an extra £700 million is being spent on probation. A lot of that will go on extra staff, but it will also go on more electronic monitoring and more technology. One of the problems is that we do not have enough technology to enable probation staff to do what they came into the service to do, which is to speak to offenders face to face and help them turn their lives around. Too much of their time is spent copying and pasting various reports, and so on. We have been running a trial called Justice Transcribe, which I am very happy to go into in more detail if the Committee would like. It basically brings in AI and technology to free up people’s time. Justice Transcribe and e-supervision reduces the amount of paperwork that probation staff need to do by 50%. A lot of our work is around delivering the Sentencing Bill, implementing it and investing in prisons and probation—whether that is extra prison places or better prison conditions. There is also a real emphasis on the future of our probation service and ensuring that it is fit for purpose, too.

I am sure that we will come back to prison capacity and the other issues shortly. Ian Barrow, from your perspective, what are the main challenges now facing the Welsh system?

Good afternoon. I am Ian Barrow, executive director for HMPPS in Wales. Without repeating too much of what Lord Timpson said, my main focus over the last few months has been looking at where we are in terms of capacity. That is a day-to-day issue for us. We are preparing for implementation of the Sentencing Bill from a probation point of view. Clearly, there is some way to go to get through all the details, but getting the workforce ready for that has been an important element for me. The final thing to say is that we need to make sure that we are properly engaging with the range of stakeholders we deal with. We have had a range of inspections in probation and prisons recently, and we have engaged with the Welsh Language Commissioner. Those are the elements at the top of my agenda.

Lord Timpson, thank you for being with us. I will start by asking a question about the relationship with the Welsh Government. Could you describe your working relationship with Welsh Government colleagues in the justice area?

I would like to think it is a really positive relationship. I think we are working really well together. Ian and his colleagues are very much embedded in the work that we want to achieve together. I am hopeful that the more we work together and the closer we work together, the better the result that we will have. I want to see reduced reoffending and fewer victims, and the best way to do that is to work really closely together. I am sure we will come on to the future of probation and youth justice, but from my point of view, we have got to the first base, which is coming up with a plan to deliver on a sustainable capacity problem. That is what the Sentencing Bill does. It is then about how we get stability not just in our prisons, but in our probation service. I would like to think that we are in a good place, but we are aware of what is on the to-do list and the ask list. I think we are all quite aligned.

I want to ask a question about the connection between the reserved and the devolved areas. Obviously, prisons and probation are reserved, and services such as education and healthcare are devolved. Do you feel that that helps or hinders the experience of Welsh offenders? I am not advocating for any further devolution over and above what is being actively discussed at the moment.

I am someone who likes to follow the evidence. Where the evidence is really clear, that is what we should be doing, because we are trying to resolve a really complex problem. I am a big believer that education works really well when it is also delivered alongside third sector organisations. It is not just about Government; it is about how we can work with the third sector. David Gauke was very clear in his independent sentencing review that we need to reach out more to the third sector across all areas of justice. From a health perspective, there may be simpler ways to deliver. I am a big believer in simplification, but I am also very focused on performance and accountability. It is about how we get to a position where it is as simple as possible, so everyone understands who is accountable for what, and we can manage performance based on the evidence. That, to me, is where we need to get to.

Since you have been in your role, have you ensured that the Ministry of Justice’s policies take the specific impact in Wales into account?

There are a number of different ways of thinking about this. From a policy perspective, we need to ensure excellence in all our prisons and probation offices. We also need to look at where the really good ideas are coming from and where performance varies. If you look at probation delivery units, north Wales is at the top of the tree—it is our No. 1 performer at the moment. That is a really good example for me. We can go and get really good ideas from north Wales and bring them elsewhere. There are also ideas in English prisons, and I have been to prisons in Northern Ireland, Albania, Spain and so on. We need to bring all those ideas together. From a personal point of view, I live very near Berwyn prison—I actually live over the border in England—and when I was growing up, I spent a lot of time in north Wales. I know a number of people who work or have worked in Berwyn prison, so some of it is personal, too. I want to see all our prisons and probation services, whether they are in England or Wales, performing really well, but I want to make sure we are supporting our colleagues in the best way that the evidence says. It may say that the Welsh probation service, for example, benefits from a different kind of support than London probation services.

I have one final question. Are there any examples that you can think of where UK Government justice policy is particularly out of step with that of the Welsh Government?

While I am thinking of something, do you mind if I defer to Ian, who is more involved in the details?

I do not think there is anything out of step, but there are clearly some differences. If you look at things like some of the housing legislation conditions, we have a different approach in Wales than some of my colleagues would have in England. But I do not think there is anything in that that is particularly out of step, or that causes any particular issues. I suppose one issue that we would highlight is some of the occasional differences in substance misuse prescribing in custody. Welsh prisoners have access to Buvidal, but that has not always been the case when they have been released into England. We therefore sometimes need to make distinct plans for people who are being released into England, to make sure that the clinical path they are on is suitable when they come out of custody. But again, I don’t think we see that as particularly problematic; it is just perhaps a slightly different way of dealing with some of these particular issues.

Thanks, Ian. I think the main difference is female offenders, because obviously we have no female prisons in Wales. Most of the women are in Eastwood Park, some are in Styal and there are a few others moving around. I think that is probably the biggest difference where we are out of step. There are obviously no cat A facilities either. From speaking to colleagues in Wales, everyone is sort of comfortable with the position on women’s and cat A prisons, but it does mean that some of our Welsh prisoners are not close to family, which I know causes a lot of pressure on them and their families.

Let me explore the devolution aspects a bit more. For instance, we had 11 Labour Members of the Senedd write to the Prime Minister, citing a pushback on devolution and, in particular, the lack of progress in the justice area. Lord Timpson, are you satisfied with the UK’s overall approach to the management, or potential devolution, of aspects of the justice system?

This subject obviously comes up regularly, and I am really clear that I am ambitious for this—it is in our manifesto—but we need to do it in a very positive way so that it is successful. Not to be a bore on the point, but we need to sort out the capacity and then I need to stabilise the system—prisons and, more so, probation. Probation used to be a gold-standard service, and we need to get it back to that point. From my experience of running a business, the best way to do significant change is when you are on the front foot. I want to get to the point where we are on the front foot, but I want to get there quickly. I know everyone is hungry to get to a point where things are stable. I am in the business of following good ideas and following the evidence. When I see, for example, how well north Wales probation teams are performing, that is really encouraging. I know the Welsh justice teams have been to Manchester to see the mayoral team’s justice model there, which again has some really interesting areas. The way it works with the third sector and the way people work together give really good results. I am very much in the market for that, but we just need to get to the point where we have stability.

I want to touch on the issue of disaggregated Welsh justice data. Thank you for the updates you have been providing this Committee in that respect, but could you outline how your Department is using that data or plans to use it?

Perhaps I can answer the first part of the question and then hand over to Ian. I think we—well, the team—have made really good strides on this, but if we are going to take the next big step, we need a combination of two things. We need to invest in more staff to do all the analysis, and to look at how we can embrace AI to pull that data out and use it in a helpful way. I think that we will get there and that we have made good progress, but it is a combination of those two things. We literally just need more staff, and—I am sure this is the same across many other Departments, too—it is about how we can embrace technology to pull out the data that is really helpful to us, rather than just getting more and more data.

In terms of looking to expand into other areas where there are gaps, do you have a timeline for that? Is there a plan? You have mentioned this, but we are particularly concerned about Welsh women—there have been gaps regarding those who are pregnant in prison, for example. Do you have plans to publish that set of data?

I do not have a timeline that I have been discussing with colleagues, but Ian can give the detail.

In terms of the overall ambition of the Department, are you committed to this and will you be looking to push it forward?

Very much so. We are not holding back; we just need to find the funds to do this. We also need to see how the technology comes so that we can use it to pull out the data. We are not there yet. We are not holding back apart from money and the tech, but we are ambitious for it. I recognise how important and helpful it is, because more evidence gives us the best ways of having fewer victims in the future. That evidence comes from the data, and having more data presented in a clear way has to be a good thing.

I am very pleased with where we have got to in terms of data. We have worked well and, I think, collaboratively with Welsh Government colleagues and Dr Rob Jones at Cardiff University. I am pleased with where we have got to with the bespoke Welsh publication. I will mention a couple of points. We are still working to see what we can do in terms of exploring further data. There are some practical issues involved in some of the very small numbers we are talking about. There is a relatively small number of Welsh women in prison, and a smaller number within that are pregnant. Some of those numbers are so small that they will always be suppressed, and we will never be in a position to publish them, because individuals could potentially be identified, essentially. But we are working to see what we can do with that. In terms of what we are planning to do with the data, one of the reasons I am pleased is that we are finally getting to the stage where we can talk about what the data is actually telling us, rather than focusing on whether or not it should be disaggregated. For example, in recent conversations with the Welsh Government and Dr Jones, we have been planning to hold a roundtable—probably in February next year—to look specifically at some of the information that has been released on women in custody, and at concerns raised about levels of remand, short-term sentences and so on. That will allow us to work in partnership to understand what the data is telling us, and what future policy development we need to address that.

I think this is really important. We are making good progress, but there is still more we need to do. One of the things I have recognised, from being in this role for 18 months, is that our internal comms need to be better, including how we communicate to staff and prisoners what we are doing. A number of improvements have been made recently. For example, I know that we have had an issue at HMP Berwyn with a lack of access to Welsh television, which I think has either been sorted or is being sorted this week or next week. We have a Welsh language taskforce at Berwyn prison, which is good news. We are committed to publishing an annual report every year for the life of the new scheme on Welsh language in prison. So we are doing a number of things, but I completely agree that—and I am specifically thinking about women in Eastwood Park. I have met a number of women there from Wales—those of you who have been to women’s prisons will know that there are a lot of very poorly women—and whatever we can do to support them, whether it is language, mental health or otherwise, is absolutely vital. It can even be critical for some people. It is something that I take very seriously. Ian and I have had a number of conversations, and we are pushing on this. What I would appreciate is even more challenge, to see what more we can do. Perhaps Ian will give us an update on some of the detail.    

I completely recognise the importance and the right of people to speak Welsh. Your point about individuals’ wellbeing—I completely understand and get that. You will be aware that the Welsh Language Commissioner has launched an investigation into the use of the Welsh language scheme at Berwyn. Whatever we learn from that investigation and from working with the commissioner, I am committed to rolling out across the other prisons that I am directly responsible for in Wales. I will also ensure that we have full engagement with prisons in England that hold numbers of Welsh prisoners. I completely understand the concern, and I can assure you it is being taken seriously.

If I am being absolutely honest, sometimes it has been a lack of co-ordination on our part, rather than lack of resources as such. Lord Timpson has indicated that the past couple of years have been incredibly difficult in the prison estate. I think we need to focus more on what we have done on the Welsh language. I am committing to do that.

May I add a couple of comments, please? One is your point on healthcare, which is really important. Often it is when people are at their most traumatised and ill that they need the support. Healthcare workers who speak Welsh is a really relevant and important point, which we need to keep pressing on. It is also a cultural matter, including within HMPPS. It is not just about sending a memo out, internal comms and spending a bit more money; it is deeper than that. It is how we have a culture of being here to support some of the most vulnerable people in this country—I am specifically thinking of women in prison. We need to do all we can to make sure that when they get out, they stay out and do not come back again. Part of that is certainly the language they speak.

I do not disagree.

Continuing this theme, Lord Timpson, is there sufficient transparency and accountability in how the Welsh language is used across the prison, probation and youth justice service?

I think we can do more. I think we need to do more. Ian talked about a system that has been running too hot for too long, where the primary objective has been just to make sure that we can cope with the system, and that means that other things get overlooked. That is the case in the point that we are discussing, but also it has happened in lots of other areas as well. We need to tighten up the whole system. Also, further to what I was saying about justice transcribed and what we are trying to do with introducing technology into probation specifically, we need to make sure that it is not just in English. This is where the culture point comes in: we need to recognise that we are catering for a number of colleagues and offenders who require a different language. We are not as tight as we should be on transparency, but I think we are getting better. We have made progress on that part of the data, but we have more progress to make. That is why having a longer-term view on what we are trying to do in justice is important, so we are not just lurching from crisis to crisis. We need a stable justice system, and then we can really crack on with things like this, which are important.

Thank you for your candour.

I would just add that we are now committed, as part of the Welsh language scheme, to publish an annual report on progress against Welsh language standards.

I want to thank you for the frankness and honesty of your answer. Building on the theme of data, would you support the introduction of a Welsh-speaking survey designed by both His Majesty’s inspectorate of prisons and the inspectorate of probation in collaboration with the Welsh Language Commissioner? It could be used in all their inspections across the Welsh justice estate.

I am happy to look at anything that will improve things. I am not sure when that would happen or in what depth, but it is important that we find out as much as possible within the realms of all the complexity that we are dealing with. I am very interested in learning more, but we have made good strides.

Thank you both for joining us. Why does Wales have the highest imprisonment rate in western Europe?

I do not know the answer to that. It is a question that has been put to me a few times recently, and we need to do more research to understand it more widely. There could be lots of different reasons, but I do not think I can comment, because I just do not know the answer. I am sure that this has been on your mind for some time, Ian. With Ian’s experience in the system, maybe he can give more of a granular answer. From my professional viewpoint of being around this sector for 25 years, I just do not know.

Just to clarify, you are the Prisons Minister?

Yes. I have been around this sector for 25 years, and this is a question that has been asked of many Ministers. But we do not have the data that tells us why.

I will follow up before we go to Ian. What are you doing to reduce the number of custodial sentences in Wales?

We are doing a number of things. One is the independent sentencing review, which led to the Sentencing Bill. It means that by the end of this Parliament, there will be more people in prison than ever before, but we will also be diverting some people away from prison based on the evidence. There is the presumption against short sentences, for example. We are also asking how we can make sure that when people leave prison, they do not come back—80% of offending is reoffending, so clearly it is not working. We have committed to halving the number of people who leave prison with nowhere to live from 15% now to 7.5%. That is still too high, but I need to get to 7.5% first. We are looking at how we get more people into employment on release. When I set up the first employment advisory board four years ago, 14% of prisoners had a job after six months; now 38% do. We have made progress there, but there is still a lot more we can do. I am still concerned about the number of people who are leaving prison addicted to drugs and alcohol. It is far too high: 49% of people going into prison declare that they have a problem with drugs and alcohol. I want to get more AA and NA mutual aid work in prisons. There are several routes that we need to go down, but the Sentencing Bill is our gateway to getting all of that going. We are already seeing improvements in the system, but I have a long a way to go.

This is a hugely complex question, which is one of the reasons why I am very glad that we are now in a place to start interrogating some of the data rather than just having conversations about it. The courts in Wales obviously use the same sentencing guidelines as courts in England, so that should not be a factor in it at all. I suspect that we need to look at factors beyond the criminal justice system to determine the answer—issues of substance abuse, deprivation, et cetera in the community. It is a hugely complex area, and one I am looking forward to getting stuck into.

Thank you both. Lord Timpson, we were told in evidence that phone calls for prisoners are more expensive than those outside the secure estate. What is your Department doing to bring the cost down to make it easier for prisoners to stay in touch with their families?

Phone calls are vital to keeping ties with family and loved ones. It is clear that when people leave prison and have good, close connections with family—they were getting regular visits and regular phone calls—they are far less likely to reoffend, so it is something we need to encourage. That is why one of the first things I did when I came into this job was to look at the cost of phone calls. When I chaired the Prison Reform Trust, which I did proudly for a number of years, this issue came up again and again from prisoners and their families challenging why it costs so much. I am a commercial person and came in from a business perspective, and I managed to get the cost of calls reduced by 20%. The cost is still often higher than what people pay on the outside, but that is because there is a whole networking system and security system, and various numbers are security certified, so a lot more goes into it. I am also interested in video calls. When I went to the prisons in Northern Ireland, for example, they were really good on Zoom calls as a way of keeping in touch, especially for foreign national offenders and those with families who cannot visit regularly; it is good to have the screen in front of them. We need to do more to encourage connection between people in prison and their families and loved ones, but it is good news that we got the price down by 20%.

I am really proud that we have set up the Women’s Justice Board, and that we have committed to closing a women’s prison. I believe that many women in prison should not be there, and that many of them are victims themselves. When you hear that 60% of women in prison have brain damage from being beaten up, you have to ask the question, “Why are we locking them up?” This is another thing that is quite personal to me: my mother was a foster carer, and a lot of the mums of the children she fostered were in Styal prison. As a kid, I sat in the car park for hours on end while my mum took the kids in for visits. It never felt right that they were going in there to see their mums. It is a sad fact that a small number of children are in prison with their mothers now, in Eastwood Park and Styal. I do not know the exact number. I have heard stories about how when the children reach 18 months, which is the longest they can stay with mum for, they have to go to foster care or living with aunties and uncles and so on. When children run up to security guards in Tesco because they are used to seeing people who they associate with as being security guards—that is not a positive thing. There is a lot in this one for me. The Women’s Justice Board was set up. We have a fantastic group and have gone into a lot of depth. It has taken longer than we all thought it would, but two days ago they delivered their final report to me. I literally have the sub in my bag, which I will go through tonight, as to the main directions we will go in. For me, it is pretty clear: we follow the evidence. A number of women should be in prison; a number of women have committed serious offences and will be in prison for a long time, but, if you take Eastwood Park, for example, women are in and out all the time. When I last visited five months ago, the average number of days spent there, across all the women, was 46. Clearly something is not working, which is why the Women’s Justice Board and the work we are doing on the delivery group is so important.

This comes back to my first point: how do we divert women away safely? I am a big believer in residential and non-residential women’s centres; you need a mixture of both. We are getting to the final stages of our allocations process, so in January we hope to be in a position where we can make a decision on Swansea. We are also doing work around approved premises and intensive supervision courts, as part of our Sentencing Bill. I do not know if any members of the Committee have heard of Hope Street in Southampton, which is a fantastic residential women’s centre. Women can also come in the day, and there is a coffee shop where they can bring their children. It clearly works, but it is not full. It is not just Hope Street; a number of women’s residential centres are not full. We know the demand is there, but we do not have the link up with the justice teams, probation teams, housing teams and so on. Making sure those women are in a safe place is very much part of our work. The work that they do is superb and it has got to be the way forward.

Perhaps Ian will have details on the planning for that. I do not know where you are up to.

That is part of our consideration in the current allocation process. My personal view is I do not think there is enough demand for an approved premises and a residential women’s centre. They are for slightly different cohorts obviously, but I do not think we have enough to support both. We also work in conjunction with partners in Wales; we are working with the Nelson Trust on some of what they are looking to do. Hopefully, we will have a clearer picture on the direction of travel early in the new year.

Lord Timpson, you cited a staggering statistic regarding the number of people who are going into prison declaring they are using drugs. Given the problems HMP Parc has had with drugs—notably reports of people throwing them through the windows—is August 2026 an acceptable timeframe for the prison to complete its window replacement programme?

The number of deaths at HMP Parc is absolutely terrible. I have visited, as I am sure a number of members of the Committee have. Lessons have been learned and things have got a lot better, but it is still on my list of concerns and we need to make sure that things keep improving. One of those points is about how drugs get in. It is not just through drones; there are lots of other means by which drugs can get in. Windows and grilles are an important part of that. For someone who has come from the commercial sector, seeing how long it takes the public sector to do capital projects amazes me, but when I start digging into it, it seems to get even more complex. I have in my notes that we have already got 344 new windows installed and there are 482 remaining. One of the problems with putting new windows in is that you need to decant various parts of the prison to do that. It is quite a logistical exercise to get it done. It is clear that we want this done; the capital has been approved and we want to do it quickly and safely. I would just touch on: why are people taking drugs; why do people want to take drugs, and what are we doing to help them overcome their addictions? For lots of people prison is an opportunity to turn their lives around, and it is those people I want to support through mutual aid and medical support. Replacing windows is an important part of that, but it is not the whole picture.

I will quickly add that, at the moment, the rate of window replacement is about 16 a week. Adding to what Lord Timpson said, the safety assessment to go any further than that would require us to close wings and disrupt prisoners by moving them to other prisons. I am hoping that we will have managed to complete the work before October ’26. That is a date that includes some contingencies for inclement weather and what have you, but I am hopeful that it will be completed before then.

Thank you both. Lord Timpson, the Ministry of Justice granted pre-application approval for HMP Parc’s expansion plans in September 2024, which was prior to this Committee scrutinising yourself and the prison’s senior leadership team, and prior to HMIP’s damning inspection report in January 2025. Was HMP Parc always destined for expansion?

I have been here for 18 months, and we have been looking a lot at capacity and prison building. From when you decide to build a new accommodation block to it being done is about a seven-year process, so I am not aware of all the details—maybe Ian can fill us in on that. One thing that is for sure is that we need to build more prison capacity. We have just opened a new prison in York, HMP Millsike; we have a new prison being built just outside Market Harborough; we are starting another one in Lancashire; and we need to keep building big new prisons to cope with the fact that prison numbers across the estate are going to keep growing. Where we have the land in an existing prison it is a lot more efficient to do that rather than build new prisons—even though it is still very expensive—because you already have the healthcare, the visits and the culture of the prison. As far as going back in time—

I do not think it was always destined; it went through the appropriate assessment process. I think one of the factors that we discussed at the time was—it was clearly awful what happened in Parc; that could have been any prison, frankly. It was the nitazenes that got into the prison somehow that contributed to the issues. We were happy, I think, with the response we got from G4S on that. I might be misinterpreting the question, but it was not a factor that we felt should put a block on expansion plans.

Ian, how are you going to ensure that that prison remains safe, and gets safer as it expands?

As previously discussed, we have a contract management team based in HMPPS that oversees the contract in Parc. We have a member of staff who is based in Parc full time, a controller who feeds back on any concerns and issues. We work very closely with the G4S team; we look at the figures that are coming through and we share information and resources in terms of security and search teams across HMPPS. I have every confidence that they will be able to manage that expansion. It will involve another 160 jobs—I think those are the estimates—so there will be additional staff going into the prison. It is not as though we are asking them to manage on the resources they have at the moment, so I am confident we will be able to manage that expansion.

Will Welsh prisoners, obviously of the appropriate security category, be prioritised for the additional capacity that is being put in place at Parc?

We will, where possible, try to get Welsh prisoners into Wales. There are obviously lots of factors that go into that, including security categorisation, as you touched on, and proximity to home—for example, for some Welsh prisoners, coming to Parc is a further distance than being in Altcourse. We always look at prioritising those prisoners wherever we can, but it is not a straightforward, “They’re Welsh, therefore they’ll go to Parc prison.”

We have heard that the rate of imprisonment of Welsh prisoners is higher than in England or other areas. The worry is that we are at this higher level already and, if you are increasing the numbers at Parc, is that for Welsh prisoners, or is that bringing more English prisoners in?

Parc is an England and Wales resource, as are all the prisons in Wales. The expansion is in relation to the entire estate of England and Wales. It is not a Wales expansion programme on its own—it is an England and Wales expansion programme.

If it helps, the figure I have is that roughly three quarters of prisoners of Welsh origin are in Wales, and obviously that includes female prisoners as well.

That would imply that there are a significant number of English prisoners in Wales.

There are, yes.

Especially in Berwyn, I would have thought.

I would like to turn our attention to the Probation Service. Lord Timpson, you referred to the north Wales Probation Service as being top of the tree, yet the Committee has been informed that, in the most recent inspection, it was said to require improvement. Was your statement a reflection of the relative performance, as opposed to absolute performance, of the north Wales Probation Service?

I don’t think we have any probation service that is firing on all cylinders at the moment, despite fantastic work from our probation staff, who are doing an incredible job in very difficult circumstances. I am quite data driven on performance, and I look at performance compared with other prisons and probation areas of similar geographies and sizes. The last results I have seen are really encouraging. Generally, 10 out of our 12 probation regions across England and Wales are performing better than last year. We have got a long way to go, but there are green shoots. I am interested in why they are performing so much better and what they are doing. When you drill down into it, they have got really good connections with housing teams and mental health providers, and it makes a difference how co-ordinated their work is. It also comes down to leadership. All probation units and prisons come down to leadership, and they have a really strong team there, who have been there for some time. If it helps, Ian could fill in some details on that.

I am interested to know whether relative improved performance is down to really good individuals, or to certain ways of working or systems that have come about, fostering a closer relationship with housing teams and so on.

I think Probation Reset has helped. We are trying to manage the capacity with the resource that we have, and that has taken some of the pressure off, but that is why we really need the Sentencing Bill and the changing way that we are introducing technology to get to the next stage. When you have 108 different probation teams, you are going to get a variation in performance. Our job is to use the evidence for where is performing well to help everyone else catch up.

You are right. North Wales is the highest-scoring probation delivery unit that has been inspected to date. I think that is based on strong leadership and a focus on the entire picture of what we are delivering. In Wales, other areas did very well in the inspection. Dyfed Powys, for example, scored very highly on elements of engagement and desistance work, and Cwm Taf Morgannwg scored highly. In fact, Wales had—I think I am right in saying—the highest average desistance scores across all regions. It is the holistic approach that Lord Timpson talked about, and that was reflected in HMIP’s overall assessment that Wales was an “exemplar”—I think that was the word used—of how probation should join up with other areas.

Is there a way of sharing that best practice with other teams? I appreciate that there will be certain circumstances and conditions that mean that they do not always cross over, but is there a way of exchanging and sharing that?

In Wales specifically, we have a HMIP action plan that has been developed, and it is being worked through with all the probationary units in Wales. On a wider scale, that feeds into a probation performance committee, and good learning and areas for improvement are shared at that level.

Another area I am interested in is consistency. I worry when I see everything going well, then it all falls off a cliff. One of the areas that vary greatly is the number of people getting housing on release, and the number of people losing their housing. I have seen a number of probation units that have fallen down the league table pretty quickly. Often that is down to changing housing providers—the links have changed. If we go a step forward every day, then that is good news. I am interested in consistently going forward and using the evidence of high-performing areas. It was a really good idea that the Welsh team went to see what was happening in Manchester. I would like to see more of that and more swapping of ideas as well.

On the housing point, have you come across any significant trends or patterns with regards to the efficacy of that relationship with housing teams and housing providers—whether it is housing associations or local authority housing? I appreciate that there are differences; in some counties the local authority is still responsible for that provision, while in others it will be an independent housing association. Does the data suggest that one is better than the other?

One of the problems that gets raised with me a lot is the poor joined-up working with offenders and housing. We invest a huge amount of money in CAS3, CAS2 and CAS1 accommodation to improve premises, but there is a big role for technology to link up where the accommodation is to the people who are leaving and to their specific needs—because a number of our offenders have very specific requirements. To get that consistency, we need to invest in digital solutions too.

We have a system of housing accommodation pathway co-ordinators, jointly funded with the Welsh Government, who act as our liaison points with local authorities. There are persistent shortages in supported and transitional accommodation for people, particularly for those who have higher complex needs and who present difficult risks. Emergency and crisis provision varies by local authority—for example, some use bed and breakfast and some do not. It is an area of continued focus.

Thank you, Chair. Lord Timpson, youth justice seems to be an area that is working particularly well, with good examples of partnership working. What do you put that success down to? Is there scope to replicate that in other areas of the justice system?

Just to be clear, youth justice is not my speciality area—my colleague Jake Richards is the youth justice Minister. I cannot remember the exact timescale, but over the last 15 years the number of children in prison has gone down from 4,000 to just under 500, I think. It has changed significantly, and the reoffending rates have not gone up as a result of that. In June, we agreed to explore options for how best to run youth offending, so we are on with that. I do not want to labour the point, but this comes back to evidence. One of the great things that we have in the justice sector is some really good evidence, but we have not always been good at following that evidence and making sure that we act on it. When I went to Parc prison and saw the YOI set-up I thought it was really impressive: the time out of cell, the emphasis on education and the good culture. I am also aware that young people in the justice system are becoming increasingly complex, and we need to keep developing our skills and strategies to cope with the changing nature of their offending and the complexity that they bring with that.

Thank you. Mr Barrow, could you talk a little bit about what plans there are to increase capacity in Wales, particularly for keeping young people who are offenders close to home?

There are no immediate plans for expansion. At Parc, there is of course a young offenders institution as well, which is not impacted by the wider expansion. I think at the moment we feel we have enough capacity. At the moment, we have 46 places at Parc and four places at Hillside, a secure children’s home in Neath. At the moment, we have significantly fewer children than that number in custody in Wales.

Is there a difference in north Wales in particular, in terms of capacity?

No. Again, we use English facilities in relation to children in north Wales. The numbers are very small, but obviously the assessment is that it is probably better for children to go somewhere closer to home than it would be for them to come down to south Wales.

I do think that what has happened to divert children away from closed establishments has been a success.

Lord Timpson, we are going to move on to education now. Obviously, education provision is vital within prison settings. We have had witnesses from the education providers talking about online education yet, when we drilled down into it, we found out that when they were talking about online, they meant paper. They are still using paper systems because of difficulties with the online system. What is happening to ensure that prisoners can be brought into the 21st century and have online education, rather than this paper-based system?

It is a really good question. There is an irony here. We have some prisoners who have been in prison for so long that they have never really used technology, and other prisoners who have never really used paper because they are used to using technology. We have a number of challenges on education in prisons at the moment, not least the budget. Even though we are spending 3% more money on education, it is delivering us less output. I am also concerned—this varies from prison to prison—that in a number of prisons that I have visited before and since doing this job, you walk past classrooms that have 20 desks and computers and no one is in them, or six prisoners are in them. This comes down to the capacity and the regime, and often the issues around that. Launchpad is basically an in-cell iPad system that allows people to order visits and access basic education. There is also a company called Coracle, a number of whose laptops are rented by prisoners per week, and those laptops have news, reading and so on. I would like to progress technology much further in prisons, not just in the classroom, but in cells. There are international examples. There are a lot of internal issues with security and how we how we bring all that education in digitally without any security issues, but I remember going to see prisons abroad where the prisoners basically have a computer and can read the newspaper from their country of origin, where they are going to go back to. They can learn. The Open University, for example, offers the most amazing opportunity, especially for people doing long sentences. We need to give as many opportunities as possible. We also need to really invest in our libraries. Libraries give a great opportunity for people. I have met a number of prisoners who learned to read for the first time in prison and are really proud that, when they get out, they can read their kids bedtime stories. We have such a wide variety of educational needs, but we certainly need to invest in more digital, while not forgetting the basics about reading kids bedtime stories.

Absolutely. Ian, in terms of digital provision within prison settings in Wales, do you know exactly what is going on in each one? Have you mapped it out, or are you going to map it out?

I am not going to be able to give you a comprehensive answer on that, but we utilise the virtual campus wherever possible, particularly where that is secure and affordable. I know that we are piloting schemes including virtual reality headsets as training provision for people. We are looking at what alternative methods we can utilise in terms of technology in workshops and what have you. We are keen to expand it and get as many digital resources as possible into that, but it requires a bit of further engagement between ourselves and the Welsh Government on how we do that.

In terms of mapping the provision across the prison setting, are you aware of where there are gaps in the service, or not?

Certainly people in my team are—I am not able to confirm that now, Chair, so I will write to you to follow up on that.

That would be helpful, thank you.

Chair, do you mind if I add a point on employment and how that links to education? One of the things that I am passionate about is giving people the skills so that, when they leave prison, they can get a job. When we talk about education, I am also interested in purposeful activity, because what may be more important for some people is to get skills to be a bricklayer, a painter, a web designer or whatever it is. For me, the emphasis also needs to be on how we give people the skills to get a job on release, and how digital impacts that, because people need to know now how to interact, even if it is just taking payments and so on.

Yes, absolutely. Looking at the education data, we know that in England the data is available for education, but in Wales it is not. Why is that? Are there any plans to make sure that we can identify the Welsh education data?

I think we have the data in Wales. We use a different system from England, because of different Welsh Government requirements, but we do quarterly monitoring, looking at the starts, completions, attainment and success measures in education, so I think we have the data.

Is that freely available, as it is in England?

I do not think it is published at the moment, but it is something that we would be able to share, I think.

I am sure we will follow up in writing, but thank you.

I have some questions on healthcare. It was interesting in your evidence to the Committee earlier that—correct me if I am wrong—on the UK Government being out of step with Welsh Government, you cited administration of Buvidal, for examples, for that cross-border element. Building on that—directed at both of you—what conversations have you had with the Welsh Government about prisoner healthcare?

Ian knows more of the detail, so I might come in at the end.

Prison healthcare in Wales is primarily devolved to the Welsh Government, so we are in regular dialogue with the Welsh Government on healthcare issues. In each prison, we have individual prison health assurance boards, which we use to escalate any conversations to a Wales prison oversight board, which is a joint HMPPS and Welsh Government board.

Do you think that that is effective?

Yes, I think so. We are able to reflect our concerns to that board. One of the things that we are in conversations about is that there is an NHS Wales executive performance committee that at the moment does not oversee performance in prison healthcare. We are having a conversation as to whether that is something that should be overseen by that board, and whether we could get a seat at that table, which I would definitely welcome.

I am conscious of time, so I have to make some progress, but how does that relate to the cross-border element of the healthcare that you deal with, given the devolution of healthcare to Wales?

I think that that is probably the board that would oversee that engagement. If we had any concerns about our engagement with cross-border NHS issues, we could feed that back into our existing provision, but being able to speak directly to an NHS Wales executive committee I think would be useful.

Are you specifically referring to, for example, a Welsh offender being in a prison in England and how, when they move back, we manage their health records and so on?

Yes. The Committee has taken evidence on cross-border healthcare, and it is interesting that your evidence at the beginning was specifically on the administration of the drug and how that relates. I can jump forward: are you supportive of moving away from a health board-run situation to more of a national picture in respect of NHS Wales?

At the moment, it is probably fair to say that the absence of a minimum service specification—because we have different engagement with different health boards—can make it difficult to ensure consistency. I would be interested in exploring a system that allows us to get that consistency in place.

That theme of consistency is important. We see a lot of variation, and the more consistency we can get, the better, I think. So that is an idea we need to look at.

Can I touch on the recurrent funding, which has been in place since 2014? In the context of what we have been talking about with numbers and plans for expansion, do you think that that amount should increase? That is directed more to the Minister.

I am afraid I will have to write to you, because I do not know the details of the exact funding situation.

One thing I would say on that recurrent funding situation is that I am not sure whether you are taking into account the additional funding that we give directly for healthcare in Berwyn and Parc—

£2.5 million.

Yes, £2.5 million.

And, on top of that, I think we are spending approximately £16 million on HMP Berwyn and HMP Parc, which HMPPS pays directly to local health boards for the provision of those services.

Okay, so those funds would come in addition to the £2.5 million, irrespective of the money that also goes to the Welsh Government and then gets allocated to the health board?

Yes.

Okay. Has that figure increased since—when did that come in? Did that come in in conjunction with 2014, and has it been increasing?

From memory, I think it came in for Parc around 2022, and for Berwyn from when it opened.

If you would like further information on that, we can get that for you.

That would be very helpful, thank you. I will move on to the Welsh female prisoners issue, which we have touched upon before. My colleague, Ann Davies, and my constituency neighbours have spoken about the challenges regarding those Welsh women who are serving in Eastwood or Styal. Obviously, the UK Government are responsible for their healthcare. This comes back to the point we made earlier about data, and the lack of disaggregated self-harm data by nationality. I think you raised the point earlier, Minister, about whether the distance from home is responsible for some of these figures. Do you want to comment further on that?

If I could just comment on self-harm, when you look at the data on self-harm, it is disproportionately impacted by women. The levels of self-harm are off the scale. If you break it down, it is often a small number of women doing a huge amount of self-harm, which is horrendous. Even though it is often too high in the male estate, it is significantly higher in the female estate. This is something that really concerns me. Obviously, this is a health problem that we need to support people with, but, from my point of view, it is important that the data is there so that we know what we are doing to help people, because when you see the figures that I have seen, for some individuals, it is quite alarming.

I do not think I have any data that would support, one way or the other, a link between proximity to home and self-harm. It is an incredibly complex area, regarding what sits behind some of those very sad self-harm stories. On what we are doing in Wales, through joint funding with the Welsh Government, we are funding a number of initiatives, including the One Wales service, the Visiting Mum service, and so on, to make sure we are offering as much support as we can to women who are in custody in England.

Is that trend, or potential link, in the data—relating to the distance from one’s community, family and loved ones and self-harm incidents in women’s prisons—something you are exploring or grappling with internally?

That is something we can certainly turn some attention to, in terms of looking at some of the detail. I don’t think we have information, one way or another, that supports or refutes that sort of premise.

Okay, so you might be able to write to the Committee on that?

I am very happy to write to the Committee. One of the issues we have with women in prison generally is that they are often far away from home, because we have fewer women’s prisons, so—

That is what we are trying to drill down into, essentially, because the numbers for women, as you have set out, are incredibly high. We are trying to understand whether the Welsh nationality is a factor, in terms of that linkage. It is difficult to understand the extent to which that is a factor, because we do not have that level of data.

We will commit to get as much information as possible regarding Eastwood Park and Styal and to see if there is any data that gives us the evidence either way. I am happy to see if we can pull that out.

We can certainly look. I do not think there is any current data, but we will go back and see what we can find.

I remember a piece of work that the team of academic researchers did when I was at the Prison Reform Trust on female offenders and location. I am not sure that this was part of it, but there may be some other research. I will ask my officials to see if there is any other research that covers this area, where we, specifically, do not have the information but there may be some other international evidence that helps.

I am grateful.

The Committee has done previous inquiries on prisons and prison populations, and one issue that has come up is the jagged edge between prison and healthcare—for instance, the health boards looking at people with long-term conditions, prescriptions and those sorts of things. It still seems to be a problem, in that we are told by the health boards, “Oh, everything’s fine,” but we are told by the prisoners, “No, it’s not.” There is a disconnect there. I suppose I am just highlighting that fact. Is that a common occurrence across Welsh prisons?

There are difficulties in healthcare, but one of the things that would be useful, and one of the things that I think we are going to push for a conversation about, is publication of some data on individual healthcare provision in prisons compared with the community. I do think that would be a useful comparison to see whether we are getting the service that we need in prisons.

Absolutely, and that is one of the other things: a prisoner should not get a lesser service just because of where they are at the moment. I take your point completely.

I want to return to housing, which we touched on earlier when we were talking about probation. Minister, the UK Government’s decision to freeze the local housing allowance is potentially going to leave many low-income households at greater risk of homelessness. Do you feel that this could have an effect on prison leavers in Wales? How will you ensure that they do not end up homeless and potentially reoffending as a result of that decision?

My main concern, as I said previously, is that too many people are still leaving prison with nowhere to live. It is not surprising, then, that they often very quickly come back into custody. I am really proud of the fact that we have an agreed plan in place to halve the number of men and women leaving prison with no fixed abode. That, I think, will galvanise a lot of effort from a lot of different agencies, including HMPPS, to make sure that it works. We have a number of examples where it does work really well, but we do need the technology to support us there. While it varies geographically, there are a number of examples that I hear about where there is actually enough accommodation for what we need, but we are not good at finding it and doing all the joined-up work. I am also aware that we have a number of complex offenders—often elderly, wheelchair-bound and so on; the average age of a prisoner is getting older—who are leaving prison who require very specific housing support. We need to work harder to make the system work harder for us and make this work, but it is really important in reducing reoffending.

So you do not think the housing allowance is really going to have an impact in terms of that work.

The biggest impact for us is the investment we are making—the £700 million we are investing in CAS3 accommodation and tagging and so on. The extra accommodation and what we are doing there is really important, but it is about how we join up with other partners. The third sector have a really important role to play here, too. My arms are open to the third sector and I think we need to work more closely with them.

That is a really important point. In north-east Wales there is various good third sector work going on.

In addition to the change you referenced, the Welsh Government is leading on homelessness legislation reform in Wales, and I am very pleased with the input we have had to that. We have good engagement and good, close working with the Welsh Government, so we are able to represent the needs and concerns of prisoners in that discussion.

I might be coming on to that. Is that the Homelessness and Social Housing Allocation (Wales) Bill?

Yes.

That is good to hear. That places duties on public services—prison, probation and others—to co-operate in the prevention of homelessness, but should the Home Office, DWP and police also be included in that Bill, Minister?

My view is that the more people that come to the table on these things, the better, because we all have a really important role to play. One of the advantages of the way we are working as a Government at the moment is that we are really linked up. I spend an awful lot of time meeting Health Ministers, Housing Ministers and DWP Ministers, because I know that I can only crack this problem with reoffending if I work really well with the other teams. I have to say that we are working really well together. The housing plan of halving no fixed abode is one example of us all galvanising behind it and saying, “Right, let’s get this sorted.”

Ian, do you have anything to add on that point about bringing those UK Government areas into the Bill in Wales?

I completely agree with the Minister. The more partners you can engage with properly, the better, in terms of responding to the issues.

Thank you. To wrap up this housing section, we have heard that engagement between prison resettlement teams and local authority housing teams is often inadequate. Quite often, you have people moving around between different prisons and records getting lost, and then a problem with rehousing as people leave prison. This probably touches on the data and systems points that we have alluded to throughout today’s session. Often, information is shared at the very last possible moment, which makes things challenging in terms of housing options. How can that process be improved?

I think the changes we are making in the Sentencing Bill are going to help. One example is fixed-term recalls of 56 days rather than 14 days, so we have time with an offender to get everything lined up. If you are there for 14 days or seven days, it is just enough time to give you three meals a day and make sure we fill out the paperwork, but we need to plan properly for someone’s release and make sure that we get those connections. I am hoping that that will be a significant factor in reducing the number of people leaving prison in this way. One of my concerns, which I think this is going to become an increasing problem, is the number of prisoners—MAPPA prisoners, elderly prisoners and so on—leaving with complex needs, and how we how we cater for them so that we have a successful outcome for them, while ensuring good value for money for the taxpayer too. What we are doing to support probation—the investment in probation—will make a difference, but without tech it is very difficult. This is where the point on missing paperwork comes in. We need digital records. Eventually, I am sure, we will get to a point where there is more digital than paperwork, but when you walk around a prison you just see bits of paper in lots of places. I hope that in years to come, when we go around prisons, rather than lots of paper we will see iPads and tablets and so on, because that is the direction we need to go in.

I think we have good information-sharing and partnership structures in place, and we should be sharing information on people’s releases as early as possible. Obviously, some people are released at short notice—particularly people who are on remand and perhaps get shorter sentences or what have you—and, clearly, that does raise some challenges, but it is completely unacceptable that we are not sharing risk and needs information with housing providers when we should do. I heard the evidence at the previous session about that, and I have written to Cymorth Cymru to ask for some specific examples, because they are not things that have been raised directly to me. If it is happening, I am really keen that we deal with that and get it sorted, because it is unacceptable.

Thank you. I am sure we can pass that contact on and let you have those details if it would help. Let me move on to employment; again, we touched on this when we were talking about education and skills to allow prison leavers to get meaningful employment outside of prison. Minister, how are you making it easier for businesses in Wales to train and recruit prisoners and prison leavers?

There is a lot of good news on employment. Each release prison has an employment advisory board that works with the governor and their employment team to bring in employers and get prisoners ready for interview and get them employment ready and focused. There are other things that have happened as well. Banking and identity administrators have been appointed and are making a big difference. A number of people in prison do not have bank accounts; they have lost their driving licence, they do not have their national insurance number, and so on. You need that to get out and get a phone and get on. We have the employment hubs as well. When I first started trying to help other companies and prisons work together, the problem was that we did not have enough employers who were interested. In the last year, over 300 employers have registered with HMPPS who want to employ people from prison. Actually, that has put a lot of pressure on prisons to get people ready for interview and to get the numbers through. There are some national companies that we have all heard of, and there are lots of smaller companies as well. The reason it works is that they can employ really good people who stay with them and are loyal and work really well for them. We have already made a lot of progress. HMP Berwyn was one of the first employment advisory boards that I started, and that is well established now. The employment hub in the prison is fantastic. But we are at 38%, so we still have a long way to go. The way DWP and Working Wales are based in prisons makes a big difference. Also, the culture and language that we as a Government have in respect of giving people opportunities to get a job—a good job—is important. At an open prison, as we have in south Wales, that is a really good opportunity for people to learn skills and go out on day release, too. We call it ROTL—release on temporary licence. I am a big fan of that. I was an employer before I did this job, and when you get people on day release, they are far more likely to stay when they leave prison, because you have broken down a lot of the barriers—housing, confidence, money and so on—that can cause problems. Employment is a good news story, but I am really excited about the potential to go further.

That sounds interesting and really good.

The employment advisory boards have been a huge success in linking us with local employers. The employment figures for people being released from Welsh prisons, at both six weeks and six months, are quite a bit higher than the England and Wales average.

Again, it links back to prisoners moving around the prison estate. They might have had education or skills training in the prison, but they have been moved around and those employment opportunities might not present themselves. It is the linkage of records again; we could have provided all the skills, education and training, and maybe day release, but the fact that they have moved around might undermine the outcome of that when they finally leave prison. Is that an issue that we are facing, Ian? How are we proposing to prevent that from happening?

It can be, particularly with accommodation. I am aware of some instances—these are English cases rather than Welsh ones—where people had secured employment via the employment advisory board, but we were unable to place them in accommodation in the local area. That is something that we are very aware of. We are very keen to ensure that if people are making progress, we are not putting barriers in their way to stop them fulfilling that.

Thank you very much.

Thank you for appearing before us this afternoon. We have gone through our list of questions on a great number of subjects. Is there anything that either of you feels we have not asked you about and you want to comment on now? We will follow up in writing on the areas we have discussed, but is there anything that you have a burning ambition to tell us?

I think we have covered all the areas that we had prepared for, but I would like maybe to finish on a positive note. I hope that members of the Committee feel that it has been a positive session. Every day I am seeing more good news coming through, in both prisons and probation, but we are very much still in a capacity crisis. We need to get the Bill through, and our focus needs to be on how we reduce reoffending. If your focus is just on locking people up and processing people through, you are never going to solve the long-term problem, which is: why do people go round and round the system, commit more and more crime, and create more and more victims? That is why I am really excited about going into the new year with the Department on the front foot, with the Bill hopefully through Parliament, and with lots of really positive green shoots coming through. The north Wales probation example is really encouraging, because if you can do it in one place—the great thing is that we are doing the same thing in lots of other areas—you can do it in others. That is how you raise the standard. We are fortunate to have so many amazing staff—public servants—in our prisons and probation services. They are working with often some of the most complex, difficult and dangerous people, and they turn up every day and do an incredibly professional job. I would just like to put on record my admiration for their public service.

Obviously, the Committee would echo those sentiments, so thank you very much. Thank you to Lord Timpson, Minister of State for Prisons, Probation and Reducing Offending, and to Ian Barrow, Executive Director for HMPPS Wales, for appearing before us this afternoon, and merry Christmas.