Speeches by McDonagh.

“Yes.”

“Who paid for the report?”

“That is a very different tone from His Majesty’s Passport Office saying, “Do not phone us up because you are not digitally excluded. Just get on with it”. That is the tone I was getting from you.”

“That is great, and well done, but if people do not know their national insurance number and need to know it, and are not able to find out by the other routes that you have provided, they are going to call you. It is called public service, is it not?”

“Your journey is not unique. We interview banks, building societies and insurance companies that have all been on this journey before you. We talk to them about people choosing. We talk about the fear of using digital services and the problems with scams and so much else. While I completely understand the point that you…”

“When it comes to HMRC, there is no suggestion of choice. The taxpayer is told how to access the service that collects their money.”

“Ms MacDonald, in your answer you talked about “genuinely” digitally excluded people. Who is not genuinely digitally excluded or disingenuously digitally excluded?”

“Yes. It was my first job on leaving university.”

“Have you ever done any work in them?”

“Have you ever worked in a jobcentre?”

“Have you ever sat at reception?”

“People need to be able to get an answer to their question without phoning up, do they not? I am going to do what I am sure you hate and what MPs do to you all the time. Last week, a very savvy and mature businesswoman came to see me because she and her accountant, after repeated contacts, could not get an answer to her…”

“If it is a service just for the digitally excluded or what anyone imagines they need, it will be a very poor service.”

“I have sat on this Committee in this Parliament and in the previous Parliament, and I have never praised the work of any of the bodies whose representatives came to give evidence, but I just want to thank Mr Haire and his Skipton Building Society, because every time I read about an innovative way of giving young people…”

“You have referred to the consumer duty and outcomes-based policy. To what extent would you prefer a rules-based or an outcomes-based system of regulation? To the point you made, Debbie, do you think it is the other rules that are old-fashioned and need to be changed?”

“Any unintended consequences?”

“I have sat on this Committee in this Parliament and in the previous Parliament, and I have never praised the work of any of the bodies whose representatives came to give evidence, but I just want to thank Mr Haire and his Skipton Building Society, because every time I read about an innovative way of giving young people…”

“How is the consumer duty impacting you? You made a reference earlier to it making you look at what sort of mortgages you are offering and to whom. Generally, how has the consumer duty changed how you do things?”

“Good. There is no greater praise!”

“We have made some reference to this, but how has the consumer duty changed how you treat vulnerable customers?”