Speeches by Hoare.

“Thank you. You can take a glass of water now, because I am going to turn to Mr Patrick with a couple of questions, if I may. The Government’s response to our report notes that you recently met SMEs in Northern Ireland, and that this provided a “clear framework to refine” the industrial strategy. What does this framewor…”

“Do you mean through you or directly, or both?”

“Can I just make a plea to both of you? It is one that I have often made to Ministers of both stripes, so I make no apologies in making it to you. There is always a tendency—this is not a criticism of officials—to have a list of go-to people because they are known. They are on the Rolodex; they have their numbers etc. I…”

“Again, the Government’s response to our report said that you were considering how “Northern Ireland voices can be more clearly and effectively heard within national policy development”. How, and what specific measures do you have in mind?”

“Just on that, and just for clarity, how would you then check that that Dr Rice-type figure had done their homework and was speaking with knowledgeable authority, having engaged relevant sectors to feed in views, rather than just regurgitating their own lived experience without casting the net further, in order to maxim…”

“With respect, that was not what your quote said. You were considering Northern Ireland voices being more clearly and effectively heard.”

“I am sorry to break up the Andy Burnham love-in, but let us concentrate on the current Government, rather than a putative one. Mr McDougall, you have given us a flavour or an indication of the implementation of the industrial strategy as it relates to Northern Ireland. Just as a starter for 10, is there anything that y…”

“That is very helpful. I am sure—I certainly hope you will agree with me—that there are usually two things that business needs, among other things. Clarity and simplicity are often paramount. You may be aware, but we have heard concerns from businesses about the complexity of having different strategies put forward by W…”

“No new “Edstones”. I am sorry for reliving the nightmare. Do you see the strategy as being iterative and organic in order to reflect emerging opportunities to be exploited?”

“I always have a worry, so I would just seek assurance on this, that these strategies sometimes get cast into tablets of stone and take on the significance of the Ten Commandments and the declarations of independence and everything else.”

“I have a couple of questions for Minister Patrick, but while I have you, Mr McDougall, we have called for a Northern Ireland representative to be on the Industrial Strategy Advisory Council. Would you welcome devolved nation representation on it?”

“How does Dr Rice garner the data and information in order to make a beneficial input?”

“In the promise to develop, was there an adequate, realistic window to develop that capability prior to the green light coming to them to operate the contract from day one?”

“Sorry to interrupt. Can you just clarify that? Words are important. Was this to deploy a technology that they already had at hand and which had a proven track record of coping with the demands of a scheme of this sort of complexity, or something that was in an advanced evolutionary stage for which this scheme was going…”

“Hindsight is, of course, the wonderful gift that we all wish we had when we are taking decisions. Are you convinced that sufficiently robust scrutiny by Government during that two-year window of technological development would give Government confidence that the capability would be there from day one?”

“They weren’t even that good, were they, on what one might be described as the basics—dealing with Members of Parliament raising cases on behalf of their constituents, answering the telephone and dealing with a call in a timely fashion? I am no IT person, but I do not think one could describe the operation of a portal a…”

“You take me on to my follow-up question. From memory, Government awarded the contract to Capita principally because of their commanding narrative around digital data handling and AI. Either they lied to secure the contract, or they have been let down by a third-party supplier, or the scrutiny of the Cabinet Office to d…”

“Where does one start? Let’s take that as a key point. How confident are you that Capita is operating with a full—for want of a better phrase—open-book approach and showing you as the Cabinet Office and the surge team everything?”

“A final question on this section to Ms MacDonald. Ms MacDonald, you very usefully gave the Joint Committee a series of very helpful figures and statistics. We all know that behind each one of those very large numbers is an individual who has worked hard or is going through the upset of bereavement, who is going through…”

“I am not particularly well known for being up to date with all the latest management speak, but you used the phrase “our colleagues in Capita”. I presume you are not talking about the surge team from HMRC.”