Speeches by Carling.

“The law does not require someone to remain a charity trustee for you to take action against them. Even if he had stepped down, surely it would still be the commission’s role to say, “Look, this person is a menace. Clearly, we need to disqualify this person. We cannot just accept the fact that they have gone.” He could …”

“As would I, which is why I am sort of sitting here stunned, because that would have shattering implications for the commission’s work more generally and for a lot of historical safeguarding cases. As we have talked about, the commission has said that, as there were no criminal or civil findings against the chair of the…”

“Yes, but his wife is.”

“I have the Charities Act up here. Section 181A prescribes three conditions to disqualify a person, all of which must be met. First, “the person is unfit to be a charity trustee or trustee for a charity”—yes. Secondly, “making the order is desirable in the public interest”—yes. Then, thirdly, at least one of six more de…”

“I have two questions. One of them is very quick and just to clarify what I think we have heard, which is that the PHSO is saying that, up until now, the Charity Commission has taken the view that, in this case and in similar cases, it cannot take action against a trustee if there are not criminal-level proceedings agai…”

“He is still active.”

“Happily. The charity chair sent the victim repeated messages saying that she is “nothing”, asked her for sexually explicit photos of her twin sister from now and from when she was “young”, called her a “serf”, and, in one case, tried to video-call her seven times at 4.30 in the morning.”

“According to your report, the commission said that throughout the investigation, as well as after, it did not agree with your findings. That struck me as quite a belligerent attitude. Has the PHSO had that experience with any other public bodies?”

“I can. I was pulling together a mix of different quotations; I can find the longer ones if you would prefer, Chair.”

“If you will forgive me for pressing this one more time, in Ms Hall’s case the charity chair sent her repeated messages saying she is “nothing”, asked for sexually explicit photos of her twin sister from now and from when she was “young”, called her a “serf”, and, in one case, tried to call her seven times at 4.30 in th…”

“Sorry. Do you have any concerns that the way in which the commission has responded to the PHSO’s investigation might influence the future response of other organisations to recommendations made by you?”

“On safeguarding, I asked the representatives of the PHSO earlier if they thought that your understanding of the law is that you need criminal-standard evidence to take action against a charity trustee when there are safeguarding allegations; is that your understanding?”

“That seems very low given some of the serious issues that end up being discussed by the commission and more broadly.”

“That is really helpful. Do you have any concerns that the way in which the Charity Commission responded to the PHSO’s assessment of compliance with the recommendations might influence the response of other organisations in the future?”

“Just roughly, are we talking tens, hundreds, thousands?”

“I will come over and speak to you afterwards and give you that.”

“That is fine, but if that does turn out to be the case, it does fly in the face of the PHSO recommendation that it be independent. Senior management may not have been involved, but surely you would want to make sure that all the staff are separate. It seems as though there is at least agreement in principle on that.”

“Mr Holdsworth, you have just said there are 1 million trustees. How many are typically disqualified per year by the commission?”

“Yes. I do not want to name the person publicly, because they are a junior member of staff.”

“I want to tie off a couple of technical questions. One of the PHSO’s key recommendations in Ms Hall’s case was for you to undertake an internal review using staff who were not previously involved at all with her case. Ms Hall alleges in her written evidence that she discovered later on that a person who was in attendan…”