Speeches by Thomas-Symonds.

“This was on 25 November last year. It was before the go-live date of 1 December. I was told that the UK Government would be presiding over the largest AI-enabled pension in the UK and I would therefore have “a flagship use case”. That was the assurance I was being given by Capita ahead of this. As the Committee can ima…”

“Let me take that in two senses, because there are two aspects to this. First, there is the negotiation of contracts in the first place, which is distinct from the management of contracts. That is the first point. This is obviously a contract that was inherited from November 2023. Secondly, there is the question that yo…”

“Let me come to that, because it is something we have been discussing. First of all, as I say, there is the question of restoring the scheme. There is then the issue of redress, which falls into a number of categories. We have already agreed that interest is automatically due when full benefits are settled more than a m…”

“I will pass the precise numbers on to you, Catherine. I very carefully considered the National Audit Office Report from 2025. I will pick up what you said, because I think it is fair to set that out. Obviously, when I got to November and December of last year, I felt that I had very limited options in this space. The c…”

“Let me make two points. First, I am not prepared to withdraw that team unless I am absolutely satisfied that you have a scheme that is then able to run to the standard we expect. I have no intention of doing otherwise. That is why we are in the position we are with the presence of the team. Secondly, let me clear with …”

“It is what her judgment is.”

“That is a very fair challenge, Chair. This is why, as the permanent secretary has said, we have gone further in putting the remedial adviser in and in putting in independent auditors. Not only do those independent audits look at process and capability, which is absolutely critical to meeting the milestones set up by Ca…”

“Again, that is a very fair question. First of all, we have already withheld £9.9 million-worth of milestone payments from Capita. Secondly, they have obviously defaulted in recent weeks, at the end of June, and we are taking appropriate action. Of course, under this contract, as you would expect, there are stages of es…”

“I will come to the commercials in a moment, but let me just say that I am certainly not prepared to be on it ad nauseam.”

“Yes, and rest assured that that is not our mode of thinking. That is why I have asked officials to come back rapidly with the alternative options, because you are absolutely right. We have an ongoing responsibility for this scheme to keep functioning. That is why you cannot just throw your hands up and walk away, becau…”

“It is certainly an urgent issue for me. There are discussions I have been having with the permanent secretary. There are ongoing discussions at the moment with Capita. As I am sure the Committee will appreciate, I am being quite guarded in what I am saying, but you can rest assured, first, I am very conscious of the st…”

“Broadly speaking, you summarise the policy dilemmas. That is why there are no easy answers and why the idea that anybody sensible could just walk away from one of these contracts is not viable. You are right to highlight the incentive structures. However, I would gently say that Capita rely heavily on the Government as…”

“That is completely unacceptable, to be clear. The figure is predicated on a particular timeline. Let there be no doubt: I am determined to get back the entirety of the cost from Capita, whatever the timeline ends up being. I do not regard as a serious proposition Capita’s suggestion that we go back only to a certain mo…”

“There are two things. On the surge team, I will always take operation advice on that. If a proposition is put to me that I need to do something additional, I am most certainly open to that. I have regular dialogue with Angela and get regular updates. By the way, Chair, I echo you in saying that the work that her team h…”

“I am Nick Thomas-Symonds. I am the Paymaster General.”

“The straight answer to that question, Sir Geoffrey, is no, but if I may, I will give a brief opening statement and then move to questions. The simple truth of this, which I made clear to the House in my statement on Monday, is that the position we find ourselves in is not good enough. It is completely unacceptable. I a…”

“To come in on that, my very clear instruction to the whole team has been to absolutely hold Capita to account with every commercial lever that is available under this contract. That is exactly what the team has been doing. Catherine, you are absolutely right to raise the issue and where there are breaches like this, ou…”

“On that, I deployed the team on 13 January. The work that Angela and her team did in terms of the surge resource of more than 140 officials and the pensions recovery taskforce was done within a matter of days. We did that really quickly. Your larger point, which is a very fair one, is that at the moment Capita is talki…”

“It would obviously be in circumstances where it was appropriate to do so in a contractual sense. You have to remember that I inherited a long-term contract with a break clause in the second half of the contract. The way I see this, there are escalatory steps. There are steps that we are legally able to take. One of the…”

“There are a few different points there. Clearly, there is an issue of volume, scale and security—obviously, with something of this size; there is no doubt about that. But what you just described about the nature of the scheme is one of the reasons why a technological solution—I have already read to the Committee the as…”