Speeches by Wood.

“Q Do banks have any sense of how many information notices and other applications they are likely to receive? Are there any expectations regarding the scale of the undertaking? Daniel Cichocki: We are awaiting more detail. We have high-level indicators that the Government are likely to use the measure to require banks t…”

“Q What consultation has there been with industry to make sure that the eligibility verification measures are workable and that your members will know what is required of them? Daniel Cichocki: A number of conversations with the industry have taken place since the measure was announced. We have been very clear since the…”

“Q Obviously, you have not been involved in such direct investigations, but just to give us some idea of the quantum we are talking about, what period of time do you think would count as reasonably speedy, so that it would not endanger an investigation? Are we talking about days, weeks or months? John Smart: I think wee…”

“Q The legislation sets out a specific period of time for a lot of those powers, so would it be logical to assume that for some smaller businesses, it may take longer to comply than for multinational banks that are doing it regularly? John Smart: That is true. I have spent 35 years investigating fraud, and the challenge…”

“Based on your experience with the PSFA so far, is that consistent with the length of time that, in most cases, it takes such organisations to reply to requests for information? John Smart: The consistency question is an interesting one. I think a lot of those powers are likely to be applied specifically in relation to …”

“Q For a lot of the provisions in the Bill, those in receipt of orders potentially have a very short timeframe to comply with the demands. John Smart: Yes.”

“Q This is very much a Bill of two halves, and many of the powers that will be given to the PSFA are equivalent to those that are being given to DWP investigators. The obvious difference is the use of reasonable force. Do you think that the nature of PSFA investigations means that that power will not really be required,…”

“Q How would you see that independence interacting with the decision-making processes in the Bill, which largely rely on ministerial or departmental decisions in terms of the orders for information? John Smart: That needs to be determined in terms of the overall governance structure of the organisation, as and when it i…”

“Q At the heart of this Bill is the establishment of the PSFA as a separate body outside the Cabinet Office. What do you see as the practical benefits that that move will bring? How will you better be able to serve the public sector? John Smart: I think being fully independent would probably be helpful, although I suspe…”

“Q Do either of you think that anything is missing from the Bill that would help in the fight against fraud and would be appropriate in legislation like this? Kristin Jones: My career has been dealing with fraud in the public and private sector, and I think it is important that when fraud is investigated and you discove…”

“Q Alex, perhaps you could broaden out this discussion by explaining the specific challenges that the NHS faces in identifying and investigating fraud and recovering sums of money. Could you comment on how you expect the Bill to make a difference? Alex Rothwell: Perhaps a good example is that although we believe we are …”

“Q Do you think that the measures in the Bill and the powers to update them are sufficiently flexible to respond to the changing nature of fraud that you have seen through your career and would expect to continue in the years ahead? Kristin Jones: I do have some reservations about dealing with corporate organisations, a…”

“Perhaps a draft code before Parliament makes definitive decisions on the legislation. Kristin Jones: Yes, or commitments to safeguards that will be in the code of practice.”

“Q A theme seems to be emerging from this morning’s witnesses that it is difficult to know whether the extensive powers in the Bill are proportionate without knowing how they will be exercised. Would you expect the details that are planned for the code of practice to be on the face of the legislation? Kristin Jones: Not…”

“Is that your view as well, Alex? Alex Rothwell: I would echo Kristin’s thoughts. I suppose there is not necessarily anything novel in the Bill. Those powers exist elsewhere, so we have seen them in operation. The ability to test and learn, which is baked into the proposals, is very helpful. Importantly, it addresses a …”

“Q Perhaps I can start with the same question that I asked Helena Wood in the last panel. How well do you think the Bill, as currently drafted, strikes the balance between effectiveness and proportionality? Kristin Jones: I am sure I have the same answer as Helena. Until we see the codes of practice and the operational …”

“Q Given the extent and potential impact of those powers, is it your view that some further oversight or, potentially, appeal mechanism would be appropriate to help safeguard those interests? Helena Wood: Absolutely. The concerns I have around those powers are about collateral intrusion. We can all agree that the qualit…”

“Q If we are looking at moving some of those standards on to the face of the Bill, for questions such as reasonableness, is there a recognised definition or test for reasonableness that you think could be incorporated into the Bill? Helena Wood: It depends which part of the Bill we are talking about. This is a game of t…”

“Q Welcome, Ms Wood. A lot of the discussion on the first panel was about the balance between effectiveness and proportionality. How well do you think the Bill as currently drafted strikes that balance? Helena Wood: I find it quite difficult to comment on that, given that we are yet to see the code of practice. A lot of…”

“Q The Government’s impact assessment recognises that some will change their behaviours to circumvent checks. How easy do you think it would be to close the loopholes that allow some to get around the checks? Would that be a proportionate response? Professor Button: With any kind of initiative like this, you will always…”