Speeches by Mullan.

“Oh dear! Dame Vera Baird: Kieran, you are not listening to what Claire says—she is right. The women’s movement is very disappointed with the Bill because it does not tackle the issue of criminalisation of women. They think that dealing with delays in the list is a very poor substitute, and they will not have it. They w…”

“Q Dame Vera, you talked about Charlotte’s powerful testimony. Would you accept that Charlotte has said it is wrong to use the voice of victims to advocate purely for reforms, as though all victims agree with them, and that she is opposed to the reforms? Dame Vera Baird: Yes, but she is on her own—”

“Q I have read it, and I have just read you a quote. If you do not want to take a common quote at its face value, that is fine. Claire Waxman: Can I just remind you that we have victims in the room, and I think that is really important?”

“Q People will have heard the quote and they can make up their own minds. Claire Waxman: I would urge you to read the letter that has been written and signed by 18 victims, instead of disregarding it—it is really important to read it.”

“Q I want to pick up on this discussion of the letter, which I think you characterised as coming from the perspective of women and girls as defendants in the system, not victims. I want to read you part of the letter: “The Government’s proposed reforms will likely create significant operational disruption and practical …”

“They do not—thank you. That is fine. I have finished. Claire Waxman But that is at odds with a number of the victims I speak to, just to be clear.”

“Sorry, but you have made that point. I am asking you a very specific question. Do you think Welsh Women’s Aid supports the change to jury trials? Claire Waxman: We know they do not, because they have signed that letter—”

“Q You have made that point. Claire Waxman: Victims are complex—”

“Q Sorry, we have to be really tight with the questions. Do you think, if I were to ask Welsh Women’s Aid, they would say, “We support the changes to jury trials”? Claire Waxman: In that letter, they are saying they are not—[Interruption.]”

“Q Sorry—we have to be really tight—you think Welsh Women’s Aid does not necessarily speak for victims? Claire Waxman: In that letter, the focus is on the criminalisation of victims, which is awful. The overlap of criminalisation and victimisation needs to be dealt with way earlier on in the system.”

“Welsh Women’s Aid? Claire Waxman: Yes, they are talking about criminalisation, which is an appalling failing of our criminal justice system.”

“Q My next, very simple question is: do you accept that there is a diversity of opinion among those representing victims about whether it is the right step to take? Claire Waxman: That letter was actually around victims who have been criminalised, so it is a different issue; they are dealing with victims who are defenda…”

“Q Are you familiar with the letter to the Deputy Prime Minister from a coalition of more than a dozen violence against women and girls groups, including the End Violence Against Women Coalition, London Black Women’s Project, the Centre For Women’s Justice and Welsh Women’s Aid, who oppose the changes to jury trials? Cl…”

“Q So you feel you are reflecting what victims want. Claire Waxman: Yes.”

“Q I think the witnesses were in the Public Gallery for the introductions, so I will skip straight to my questions. Claire, you have expressed your support of the structural reforms, including the reduction in access to jury trials. Could you take me through your policy formulation process when making such a decision to…”

“Yes. A whole series of stakeholders were invited by the MOJ and they potentially strongly disagree with your central conclusion of 20%. I have no further questions.”

“Sorry, but to correct the record: those people were not opposed. There was an MOJ-orchestrated workshop of neutral parties and judges, and they said it would be 10% to 30%. That is massively different to your estimate. Sir Brian Leveson: Judges?”

“Q Okay, so it would be fair to say that your report points to the need to do further modelling, the MOJ has undertaken that modelling, and you reject the modelling that your report says the MOJ needs to undertake to better understand the impact. Sir Brian Leveson: I do not accept that characterisation at all. I believe…”

“The most specific element of modelling that the MOJ undertook was something called a structured elicitation workshop, which found that the time saved would be between 10% and 30%. At the lower the end, that is half of the 20% estimate that you put forward. Would you accept that? Sir Brian Leveson: No. I think that is w…”

“Q I am being pressed for time, so I have just one final question. Sir Brian Leveson: Keep going.”