Speeches by Smyth.

“I am not going to give way. Those services operate under a fundamentally different clinical model from the Tavistock clinic. Children and young people will get comprehensive, tailored assessment and support from multidisciplinary teams made up of experts in paediatrics, neurodiversity and mental health. Under this Gove…”

“Thank you, Mr Mundell. Dr Cass also recommended that we take forward the data linkage study as part of the wider national research programme. The linkage study is not a clinical trial, and as such it will not in and of itself provide the type of evidence that can demonstrate cause and effect for any particular treatmen…”

“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Mundell. I thank the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (Jamie Stone) of the Petitions Committee for the way in which he introduced the debate. In his usual style, he made sure that he had talked to a range of people and experts to inform this debate…”

“I am not going to give way; I am going to get through these points. The safety and wellbeing of children and young people have always been the driving consideration in every decision we have made regarding this trial, and always will be. That is why the trial sponsor has paused recruiting until these issues can be reso…”

“Yes. Again, without leading us down other paths, although I am very happy to come back and talk about that, things like staff standards or things like, as I was this morning, developing the workforce plan—recognising that getting the right people in the right place—and GIRFT are so important. That does help with that. …”

“Yes, it is unacceptable. A lot of that, as we know, is around culture and making sure that people can and do do that, but it is also about then bringing in the solutions and making the staff a part of that. Again, that is a leadership issue locally—bringing those key clinical staff into solving the problem. As Professo…”

“That is a lovely question for me; thank you for that. This is a subject of much academic, clinical and managerial discussion, and I am going to lean into some of my colleagues—it is worthy of the time itself right now. I do remember that time. I was on a board of a primary care trust in Bristol during the noughties. Th…”

“From my point of view, I think that is right. The framework is to support managers and bring forward, as we have done, a commitment to the leadership college around that. But the here and now is what the team at NHS England is doing, which is having clinical leaders talk to other clinical leaders about what can be done…”

“Thank you, Chair. I was in the room for the last moments of the panel. We are very clear that this is unacceptable and that the word “normalised” should not be normalised. That is why the Secretary of State committed to seeing the end of this practice by the end of the current Parliament. The urgent and emergency care …”

“I am Karin Smyth, the Minister of State.”

“I can tell that I am not being very clear with you.”

“I will bring in Sarah-Jane if she wants to add to that. The 10-year plan obviously sets out the direction, based on those shifts, and with the workforce plan, those shifts only happen by people making them happen. Clearly, all the work that we are talking about and the future models inform that plan.”

“This might be a good point to bring in what we do there.”

“Look at the whole system, yes.”

“I think it is. The workforce plan for the next 10 years, as we look forward, has to and will reflect the change in models. We are serious about the shifts. We think that is the way, and I do not think there is much disagreement about that. There will obviously be disagreement about every aspect of getting it done, but …”

“May I respond to Mr Beales’s good point that it seems quite basic? One thing that surprised me last winter when I came into post as a new Minister, having worked previously in the system, was why certain things happened. We must not underestimate what is sometimes called muscle memory loss about how to do things right.…”

“It is an important discussion. Overall, as I have said, it is about reducing pressure. As has been well outlined, nobody can continue to work and operate at that pressure—it is 95%-plus in some places. It is a good indicator. It is not acceptable for staff. As Mr Fenton-Glynn said, there is an issue around burnout. All…”

“The 85% has been around for a long time. It has not been met for a very long time. That does demonstrate that it is about resilience and safety, and so on. That is why it has been there. It is about pressure, which is not good for staff or patients. Whether that is a helpful figure right now, in a changed system and as…”

“I am going to bring in my clinical colleagues here. I am going to be unusual here in saying that I am not sure about that one.”

“That is about the left shift. That is writ large through all of this. To Sarah-Jane Marsh’s point, these are mainly elderly, very frail women who generally should not be there. That is support to primary care. I am also surprised about—we have been checking on this throughout both the last two winters—the support acros…”