Speeches by Glen.

“If we assume that the caps and the penalties are sorted out, we have seen substantial evidence that, as a saving vehicle for somebody wanting a deposit to buy their first home, it has proved to be a success. I want to just probe and get some clarity over what happens afterwards, because, Mr Byrnes, you have said that 7…”

“Let us take that as reasonable.”

“My colleague Mr Grady set out all the advantages and options in terms of pension saving, particularly with the tax advantage for higher-rate taxpayers, but also the way that the auto-enrolment has moved forward. The reality is that once you have bought property, if you have a 90% or 95% mortgage, a lot of your disposab…”

“Of course, I am not criticising you; I am just saying.”

“I understand that, but the specific point is that that is a cash-based product. If you are then going to switch to use it for savings for pensions, or as a complement to your auto-enrolled pension, can you switch from the cash-based thing to an equities-based savings vehicle—that is, the same one? Can you retain the be…”

“What I am trying to get at is that, if you want to fulfil that aspiration of the 79%, surely you must feel a responsibility for them to move over, notwithstanding the issues around advice, to get into the equities. Otherwise, it is not going to be the right product, probably, is it? For a 40-year-old to have cash only …”

“If we can fix that, we then get a viable transition, and the dual purpose that Mr Johnson and the first panel envisaged for this could be achieved.”

“What I am trying to get at is that, if you want to fulfil that aspiration of the 79%, surely you must feel a responsibility for them to move over, notwithstanding the issues around advice, to get into the equities. Otherwise, it is not going to be the right product, probably, is it? For a 40-year-old to have cash only …”

“If we can fix that, we then get a viable transition, and the dual purpose that Mr Johnson and the first panel envisaged for this could be achieved.”

“Can I try to zone in on the possible differences? Mr Lewis has spoken about the fact that, under the auto-enrolment regime, you have this 3% employer contribution. Does that not mean that, in fact, it is not like-for-like? The pensions provision is much more underpinned with a sophisticated provision of non-cash produc…”

“We need to get on the record the fact that, in reality, with auto‑enrolment, and you have the employer contribution alongside the other, it does not really make them equivalent. It is very misleading to say that, surely.”

“Can I try to zone in on the possible differences? Mr Lewis has spoken about the fact that, under the auto-enrolment regime, you have this 3% employer contribution. Does that not mean that, in fact, it is not like-for-like? The pensions provision is much more underpinned with a sophisticated provision of non-cash produc…”

“That is dead now, is it not?”

“Is it not really a better supplementary vehicle for basic rate taxpayers?”

“It was Treasury officials, I suspect.”

“Mr Johnson, I know you well because we worked together in opposition 20 years ago—I should declare that. I do not think that LISA would have existed without you, but I understand your frustration, as it comes through, as I said, in your written evidence. Policy development has to interact with a legacy landscape and a …”

“Was it not, though? It was though, really, was it not? If this had reached its full extension as your 30-year vision would have had, everyone would have used this as the vehicle to save. They would not have been taxed on the exit. You then have a whole issue around how you advise people, particularly people who are not…”

“We need to get on the record the fact that, in reality, with auto‑enrolment, and you have the employer contribution alongside the other, it does not really make them equivalent. It is very misleading to say that, surely.”

“I was very sympathetic to it, I must say.”

“My colleague Mr Grady set out all the advantages and options in terms of pension saving, particularly with the tax advantage for higher-rate taxpayers, but also the way that the auto-enrolment has moved forward. The reality is that once you have bought property, if you have a 90% or 95% mortgage, a lot of your disposab…”