Speeches by Norman.

“And therefore your point is that the leak was all the more important and damaging, because that other material had been deleted and therefore gave the leak the special value and prominence that it had?”

“Will the Leader of the House give us the forthcoming business?”

“I am sure I speak for many Members when I thank you, Mr Speaker, and the whole of the Speaker’s Office for the work you have put in to make this past week of remembrance so memorable. The gardens of remembrance, the projection of images from the second world war on to the Elizabeth Tower, the wreath laying in Westminst…”

“I want to ask about how good you think the leadership of the reform programme is at the moment, and the point you have made about the changes of culture. It seems to me that we know what good culture looks like in the civil service. It is very fast, responsive and outcome-oriented, and we have not got it—is that right?”

“You are right, but we are talking slightly at cross purposes. I want to get your answer to the question of whether reform has the right leadership, plan and resources. The way I am going to get to that is by highlighting that your argument draws a distinction about what appears to be managerial, steady as she goes due …”

“No, but the contrast you were bringing out is operational versus managerial.”

“Or possibly at the same time, or possibly after. Matthew, does the reform programme have the right leadership, the right resourcing or the right plan? Or how far has it?”

“That is interesting.”

“That is my point. That is about culture and driving. You said that capability programme was “completely botched”.”

“That is our view, but they will not give us the information, so we cannot judge it.”

“That is exactly the point I want to make. We do not have a culture of readiness or outcomes in the way that you would expect.”

“A final question, if I may. Obviously, reform is not just about the MoD; it is also about the transmission of culture and effect through the whole defence establishment. One of the things we are seeing is that, in many ways, our prime contractors are not responding fast enough to deal with some of the issues we are tal…”

“That two-year gap is killing the demand signal.”

“Are you seeing any of those fractures or signs in the Defence programme reforms?”

“Right, but the claim was made earlier that somehow reform was opposed to warfighting when, in fact, it is essential for warfighting.”

“Gentlemen, it has been very interesting testimony—thank you so much. You have described to us an MoD and a defence establishment that is talking about reform, but in a context of being pre-war across Europe, and actually at war on the fringes. There is therefore a massive disjunct between the pace of activity as it app…”

“I understand; I am just trying to be clear on the facts. Originally, the MoD applied for an injunction, and it was upgraded to a super-injunction. They thought, “Oh, goody! We will re-apply for a super-junction when it occurs,” but originally, they had only asked for four months. They then reapplied and it was granted.”

“Okay. So then the High Court wanted the super-injunction to be discharged, and the then Secretary of State appealed that. Have I got that right?”

“What was the reason why the Government, in your judgment, chose to appeal at that point? Why do you think they were so keen that they should retain the super-injunction aspect?”

“Thank you for coming in, and for your testimony. I want to pick up some of the points on the legal process that was undergone. Larisa, you mentioned that there were private hearings and reserved hearings—or hearings to which you were not admitted. We are building a picture of private but open hearings—where defendants …”