Speeches by Byrne.

“I think the Minister can hear the concern from Members on both sides of the Committee that this will not be as effective if there is no individual responsibility, and if those who have done wrong can hide behind the corporate wall and ride off into the sunset with their full pensions, with no accountability or justice.…”

“I thank my right hon. Friend for outlining that beautifully. It goes to the heart of where we are now. As I said, we are watching a live example of why this matter is so fundamental to the Bill, and how effective it will be. I urge the Minister to listen to those concerns and work with us.”

“Absolutely. Many of us here have experience trying to get to the truth. What we tried to do will be highlighted in the Independent Office for Police Conduct report. Unfortunately, the people who should have been punished will not be punished, but that is a story for another day, I suppose.”

“I beg to move amendment 50, in clause 9, page 8, line 15, leave out subsection and insert— “(b) the making by any person of disclosures which are protected disclosures in terms of section 43B of the Employment Rights Act 1996 or which would be such disclosures had they been made by a worker or employee, including infor…”

“I thank the Minister for that; I beg to ask leave to the withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.”

“I go back to the change of culture we have been talking about. Thankfully, the Minister has touched on the idea of a listening exercise regarding strengthening the laws around whistleblowing, but it was clear from the evidence we heard last week that there is real concern that the existing measures to protect whistlebl…”

“What we are talking about is culture change. Interestingly, in last Thursday’s evidence session, culture change was mentioned 69 times. When talking about standards of ethical conduct, I think it is extremely important. That is why I have tabled these amendments, and I hope the Minister considers them. Turning to amend…”

“I agree wholeheartedly. I cannot envisage a circumstance where clause 2(5) would be enforced. All reasonable steps could include deferring to the authority lawyers or senior leadership teams. We have seen exactly this example in the Kerslake inquiry following the Manchester Arena attack, where the former chief constabl…”

“Today, as well as this Committee, the Independent Office for Police Conduct report on Hillsborough is being published. Within that report, I think there is a recommendation that fully supports the Hillsborough law and says why, because there are officers there who would not have been. As my right hon. Friend the Member…”

“Q Dr Chopra, you have talked a lot about cultural change and how we effect that. Do you agree that the ineffectiveness of the duty of candour in the NHS is due to the fact that it applies to the organisation and not the command? Dr Chopra: Can you say a little more?”

“The duty of candour applies to the organisation, not to the individual—in other words, the chief executive. Do you feel that is where it loses its power and does not permeate through the organisation? Dr Chopra: I described an incident where an individual said, “Well, if the organisational duty of candour is not trigge…”

“Q It is good to hear evidence from both of you, Chris and Richard, and I echo that the legal aid element of the Bill is great news. I am a bit concerned about some of the mood music around scaling up for the parity of arms, because that was needed yesterday. From the evidence we have heard and our experiences, we know …”

“Q I sat in an inquest open day, and we touched on the Lampard statutory public inquiry into the deaths of mental health patients in Essex. That started off as an independent review, but due to the lack of candour and co-operation of staff and senior management, it had to be converted to a statutory inquiry to compel ev…”

“Q Lord Evans, would you accept that the Bill requires no additional disclosure beyond what is already required, and that it is actually about whether the information supplied is true? Therefore, it poses no extra risk to national security; it is just about the truth of the information that is supplied. Lord Evans of We…”

“Should they be under a duty of candour, with criminal sanctions?”

“Q As you have outlined, and as has been said lots today, this is the legacy: this is what we have all been fighting for, and what you have fought for, for a long time. Andy, you alluded to what you feel needs to be in the legislation, but I want you and Steve—you touched on it being 80%—to put on record your support fo…”

“I won’t mention the football, Steve. Andy Burnham: Please do. Let’s use our last six minutes on it.”

“Q That goes to the heart of the Bill. What you have just outlined is exactly why we need that enforced duty of candour. Obviously, that is not just about an individual; you are talking about a culture that needs changing. Daniel De Simone: Yes. We had corporate witnesses, senior officers and the third in command of MI5…”

“Q Thanks, Daniel—it has been a fascinating evidence session so far. You have a lot of personal experience with MI5 over the last couple of years. Do you genuinely believe that the provisions of the Bill, as drafted, will drive the cultural change that we feel we need? Daniel De Simone: For MI5? No, I do not think so. L…”

“Q We are here today for the journey of legislation to stop the culture of state cover-ups in this country. Certainly at the heart of the state cover-up of Hillsborough was the media and the role it played. There was a hugely powerful headline in The Sun by the dreaded Kelvin Mackenzie—“The Truth”—which resonated around…”