Speeches by Jones.

“It will be both. There will be broad principles. The public may want to be involved in some of the broader discussion about their current experience of public services; how things are not working, perhaps with telephone hotlines, paper-based forms or having to tell your story five times to different Departments across …”

“We are hoping to be able to get going towards the back end of January. It is a genuine consultation. We have not pre-decided what we want to do and are not consulting just to manage legal risk. We want to make sure there is sufficient time to engage on the issues that people care about in terms of privacy, security and…”

“Let me come back to you in the new year. I am very excited, though, so I hope you will be as well.”

“I do not know whether I am allowed to announce it yet. I have to sign off some things.”

“Yes, because I said so. I wanted to make sure that we were consulting in a different way. I do not want this just to be a gov.uk web form. I want it to be a more engaging process with the public across the country, through MPs, through Parliament and with Select Committees, because I recognise that it is an issue that …”

“That is exactly right.”

“The Department for technology will be engaging with technology providers and procuring technology. It will be looking at how the system is built, operated and deployed across Government. Where there is policy co-ordination, that is where we play our role.”

“The Department for Science, Innovation and Technology co-ordinates technology procurement, build and deployment across Government, as the technology Department, but the Secretary of State for DSIT was very conscious that this particular project is one that will require a lot of cross-Government co-ordination. While the…”

“That is exactly right.”

“Yes, they are called strategy documents for a reason. It will be about strategic outcomes against spending. With time, we are integrating finance systems across Whitehall so that we can share near real‑time data, which will replace the manual Excel spreadsheet system that we inherited from the last Labour Govern…”

“The system was rubbish, basically, in my view. The ODPs were set up by Gordon Brown when he was in the Treasury. They played an important role, but they became very manual and technocratic. It is essentially an Excel spreadsheet that permanent secretaries fill out and submit to the Treasury to say what they are deliver…”

“Yes.”

“We have not pushed it that hard yet, so I cannot tell you for sure. Change is difficult for people. Departments, no doubt, enjoy their autonomy and will want to protect that. There is some argument for that. You would not want to completely undermine it. If there was any process of change in that direction, I suspect t…”

“I always have an appetite to have a go at these things. We have been looking at some application of this kind of argument in different areas. We will be saying a bit more about that in 2026, but you probably cannot just do a big-bang reform, all in one go. You have to bring colleagues with you.”

“No, I do not think so, but changing it is very hard.”

“It does. It also reflects the fact, to go back to our constitutional principles, that each Government Department is its own employer with its own hierarchy and organisational structure. We can provide guidance and we can take collective decision making to implement that, but it is ultimately still done on an employer-b…”

“My sense is that this is still a political priority for the Government. Cat should tell me if I am wrong, but my sense is that, where Ministers are saying to the system, “I, as the Minister, am telling you to take these risks, and I am accountable for them,” that works. Civil servants will respond to your requests and …”

“I do not know whether the number is right or not, but Cat might know. The key thing is that the ALBs are the Department’s ALBs. As you saw with NHS England, it is a DHSC-led process because that is a DHSC responsibility. Ofwat is a DEFRA-led process. I would look not just at the co-ordinating role that we play in the c…”

“Yes. Obviously I agree with the Prime Minister, but I do agree with him. Often when you are trying to do something, the immediate response is, “You’re going to need a Bill. It is going to be big. It is going to cost a lot of money. You need to consult.” It is important that you consult stakeholders, manage legal risk a…”

“I would just add, if I may, that it is right to question the size and the cost of the civil service, but the more important question for me is the productivity of the state. It is fine reducing headcount and cost, because we have to live within our means in these difficult economic circumstances that we are operating u…”