Speeches by Kane.

“There are times when it would be appropriate to flex, and there are times when you would say, “No, come on, you’re not doing that.””

“That would be very helpful. Thank you.”

“But if the complex option is the only option you have, you will reluctantly go with that. Dame Sarah Healey indicated assent.”

“That is sort of what I heard earlier, but I am not getting a specific figure. I like what I am hearing—it is powerful and it sounds good—so please do not take this as a complaint, but you have an understanding of success that I am struggling to understand. I am trying to get a shared understanding of what success looks…”

“So you will have done your review this year, and it may recommend no changes or changes.”

“How are you judging the success of your wider comms plan? You are going to write to everybody, and you are doing TikTok, social media and everything else. If you are spending money on that, you obviously have some measurement of success in mind to see that you are getting value for money from any spend that you have wi…”

“Okay. John-Paul, I think you understand what I was getting at.”

“It is great for us in this Committee to have good news on IT projects coming in, so hopefully this will be the next bit of good news.”

“What is the timescale for looking at the review and then making any recommendations on what you would require in the legislation?”

“I agree that you should approach this carefully. However, if you are going to say that we need a review, and that we might want to propose legislation, I do not think that it is unreasonable for the Committee to ask, “Will that be this year?” You may choose to say that you will not ask for a change in the legislation, …”

“That is the overall picture. Drilling down into the large business directorate, talk to me about that and the investment elements for this directorate: how are you getting on with that in delivery?”

“I have just heard a reason for the change and then a reason against it, so I am confused. Do you need to change it? It is either that you wanted it as a deterrent, you got a deterrent and it is working 96% of the time, which is really good—I think you said that 4% of cases are not working—or it is not working, you need…”

“I am going to ask a question about IT infrastructure, which comes up quite a lot in this Committee. The NAO Report, at paragraph 2.12, refers to the “ambition to modernise…IT infrastructure by 2030” and about last year’s spending review giving HMRC an extra £1.6 billion “to achieve this.” When do you expect to see the …”

“No, I get it, but what I am hearing from you, Jonathan, is, “Don’t change it. It’s fine, it’s doing its job and there are risks if you change it,” and what I am hearing from you, Nicole, is, “Well, maybe we might want to change it, because then we could use it more.” The answers to my question have almost been conflict…”

“Chair, I can tell that Lloyd wants to jump in very quickly.”

“I get what you are trying to do and I support it, but what this Committee has heard in the two years I have been on it—many Committees, in many hearings, have heard this—is what the IT is going to deliver and the ambition, but it has not done it. I am more interested in where you are in ensuring—getting assurance yours…”

“I will ask about IT, but first can I take you back to your comments on the special measures changes? You can clarify this if I have got it wrong, but I think you said that generally it is working most of the time as a deterrent, but that you will do a review of whether you need to make changes to legislation. Can you t…”

“Do you mind if I push this for a second, Chair? If you lower the bar, and the legislation is purely a deterrent, it does not matter whether you drastically lower that bar; you are still going to use it as a deterrent. If you are looking to lower the bar, I take that to mean that you want to use it, or there are cases w…”

“In terms of the milestones you have set yourself for project delivery, could you talk about where are you are currently against where you expect to be?”

“Just before she does, looking historically at HMRC and IT projects—and, I suppose, at Government generally and IT projects—they have not been particularly successful in reaching the milestones. Are you confident that, overall, this project is on track, and that it is a realistic track to get us where we need to be with…”