Speeches by McKinnell.

“That’s okay; that is really helpful. Thank you. I want to ask specifically about the £6 billion figure that the Government Digital Service is hoping—perhaps believing—can be saved by using data analytics to tackle some of the fraud and waste that we see. The figure itself does not appear to have been derived from very …”

“The challenge could be that it is under ambitious, rather than over ambitious.”

“That is what I was going to ask. By setting annual targets and not publishing them, is there a risk that it leaves it open for you to revise those targets up—but also down—and has that been factored in? Why are the targets not published?”

“I want to follow up on the conversation about targets. If I am not mistaken, I think you were going to say what the current target is. Are you able to share with us what the current target across Government is?”

“Thank you for what you have said so far, but I have to say that it all feels rather intangible at the moment. There is clearly no road map yet, no actual plan, no actual timeline and no actual targets that we have any visibility on. From the PSFA’s perspective, what more do you need to see and what more should the Gove…”

“To make sure that I have covered the full panel, what do you need from the Public Sector Fraud Authority or, indeed, the Treasury to make that happen?”

“That does not really touch on error and fraud, though.”

“I meant on an annual basis. Given that at the moment it is only set out on an annual basis, and since there is no public vision on whether those targets are being met or not, the following year’s target could be revised down rather than up. Is that the thinking behind it—to leave scope?”

“Are there sufficient incentives within Government Departments to make the investments needed to then see the results? I mean that in the sense of, rather than those savings being seen across whole-of-Government budgets, Departments themselves being able to see the results and outcomes from the investments they are maki…”

“Some of the data that you have collected is clearly very interesting, but there are gaps as well. We know that demand for hospice care in particular is increasing, as is palliative and end-of-life care. Do you have a clear idea of what that unmet need is currently?”

“I know it is a 10-year plan that the NHS generally is working to, but we are seeing the challenge around the cost base for all businesses—hospices operate on that basis—rising, and demand rising. These challenges around funding are squeezing hospices. What kind of timeframe are you working towards to get these incentiv…”

“Would you be able to give an example of what some of those incentives might look like?”

“Would you forgive me if I say that this conversation has now been happening for 15 years, and that answer feels quite vague and not very specific? What reassurance can you give that this is something that is not just an ambition, but is a deliverable achievement that can be made?”

“It sounds like, in theory, with the evidence we have been hearing and the answers you have given, that we want to go in the same direction. I think the challenge is the reality that we are starting from and where we want to get to—we need to understand how we get there. The evidence so far has come across quite clearly…”

“Are we able to measure the unmet need that you have said we have? I just wanted to know whether there is additional data and transparency that would help us to identify that.”

“And ensure that it is consistent, presumably.”

“That is really helpful. I appreciate that these assessments and projections have been made, but is there data that is not available currently, but would give you an even clearer vision of that and would be helpful in your work?”

“Did you say a 20% to 25% increase?”

“I have one final question. You have been very generous, Chair. There are some Departments that did not respond to the NAO’s survey. To what extent are you confident that, where there is good practice to be followed, it is being followed consistently across Government Departments? That cannot be captured as part of this…”

“Fundamentally, the question, which I do not think was necessarily answered, is whether it was effective. Is it a missing function? I appreciate that headcount reduction is really important, but quality has to be balanced against quantity. Would it be helpful to have a co-ordinating function? Did it serve no purpose and…”