Speeches by McKinnell.

“Just a bit more detail on how they are measured.”

“No, that’s fine.”

“Affordability of the project?”

“It’s okay.”

“Sorry—this is getting into a lot of detail, and it is not really clarifying.”

“It is an honour to follow the right hon. Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison). It is clear that when it comes to defence readiness, there is much on which we can all agree. Let me also—before he leaves the Chamber—pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith), an…”

“I think that answer has been given. I am trying to clarify whether that is a shift from the original policy. I understood that the intention was for all arm’s length bodies to be included, so I am just trying to understand whether that is no longer the intention—you have clarified that; thank you—and whether that is a …”

“My understanding is that the Treasury has not committed to onboarding its shared services. Given that the Treasury is funding this transformation and the onboarding of shared services, how do you square that circle?”

“Okay, so the answer is no.”

“But clearly a decision is being made that it is value for money for other Departments, but not for the Treasury in that circumstance.”

“What do you mean by heavy lifting?”

“What do you mean? Why should we not underestimate it?”

“At this stage, are you still expecting all arm’s length bodies to join the shared service clusters?”

“That does not answer the question. Is it still the intention that all arm’s length bodies will join the shared services?”

“I’m sorry, I am really struggling to understand that. The Treasury is clearly funding this programme, so I struggle to understand how it can be expected of other Departments and other arm’s-length bodies, yet there are still value-for-money considerations being applied at this stage. Either it is the strategy or it is …”

“What timescale are you judging that against? This is a long-term transformation. Are you talking short, medium or long-term value for money? How are you judging that?”

“I did not really understand the explanation of why it is more nuanced for the Treasury than for other Departments.”

“I want to ask you about the detail of the arm’s length bodies and joining service clusters, but in respect of the answer you just gave, to what extent have you looked at international comparisons and how other Governments do this? Internationally, all Governments must be transferring to new digital services. What examp…”

“Okay, that is helpful to understand although it creates some uncertainty as to the original intention and what is now developing. That goes to some of the points raised about how much this is ultimately going to cost and the outcome, given that the parameters seem to be shifting. I appreciate that some of that might be…”

“We know it’s complex; you’ve said that quite a few times.”