Speeches by McKinnell.

“That is what I was going to ask. By setting annual targets and not publishing them, is there a risk that it leaves it open for you to revise those targets up—but also down—and has that been factored in? Why are the targets not published?”

“Are there sufficient incentives within Government Departments to make the investments needed to then see the results? I mean that in the sense of, rather than those savings being seen across whole-of-Government budgets, Departments themselves being able to see the results and outcomes from the investments they are maki…”

“Did you say a 20% to 25% increase?”

“That is really helpful. I appreciate that these assessments and projections have been made, but is there data that is not available currently, but would give you an even clearer vision of that and would be helpful in your work?”

“Some of the data that you have collected is clearly very interesting, but there are gaps as well. We know that demand for hospice care in particular is increasing, as is palliative and end-of-life care. Do you have a clear idea of what that unmet need is currently?”

“I know it is a 10-year plan that the NHS generally is working to, but we are seeing the challenge around the cost base for all businesses—hospices operate on that basis—rising, and demand rising. These challenges around funding are squeezing hospices. What kind of timeframe are you working towards to get these incentiv…”

“Would you forgive me if I say that this conversation has now been happening for 15 years, and that answer feels quite vague and not very specific? What reassurance can you give that this is something that is not just an ambition, but is a deliverable achievement that can be made?”

“Would you be able to give an example of what some of those incentives might look like?”

“Are we able to measure the unmet need that you have said we have? I just wanted to know whether there is additional data and transparency that would help us to identify that.”

“And ensure that it is consistent, presumably.”

“It sounds like, in theory, with the evidence we have been hearing and the answers you have given, that we want to go in the same direction. I think the challenge is the reality that we are starting from and where we want to get to—we need to understand how we get there. The evidence so far has come across quite clearly…”

“One of the ways in which that was done was through the Government consulting hub, which has already been mentioned. It was in existence for around two years and was then reduced. I took from your response earlier that it was largely in relation to reducing headcount and overheads in terms of the number of people engage…”

“Regardless of the data, how accurate it is and how clear the picture of what is being spent on consultants is, clearly a significant investment is being made right across Government. What work is under way to ensure that it not only benefits the particular Department that procures or contracts that advice but also that…”

“What is the mechanism for determining whether that is being implemented? You talk about the dissemination of information. How do you measure its effectiveness?”

“Whose responsibility is that?”

“I have one final question. You have been very generous, Chair. There are some Departments that did not respond to the NAO’s survey. To what extent are you confident that, where there is good practice to be followed, it is being followed consistently across Government Departments? That cannot be captured as part of this…”

“There is one other question I wanted to ask. Who is responsible for taking the lessons from other jurisdictions that do this differently, and some may say better? For example, Australia has very clear definitions. They seem to have clarity on that front, which we do not seem to have in the same way. Germany is another …”

“I had a question to follow up on the questions that have been asked about AI. In your responses you have used the phrase “added value” quite a few times. How are you measuring that? Is there a consistent measure across Departments of the added value of using consultants?”

“Fundamentally, the question, which I do not think was necessarily answered, is whether it was effective. Is it a missing function? I appreciate that headcount reduction is really important, but quality has to be balanced against quantity. Would it be helpful to have a co-ordinating function? Did it serve no purpose and…”

“I was just going to follow up with one question. You were very helpful in setting out where some of the hub’s activities have transferred. Could you clarify which activities have not been continued?”