Speeches by Denyer.

“National.”

“I was about to loop us back to planning enforcement, and you got me halfway there. The discussion earlier about planning rules and conditions only being as good as the enforcement, rang very true to me in my experience as an MP and a former councillor, and talking to colleagues elsewhere in the country. Many council pl…”

“It is usually worth asking, because often the answer is yes.”

“In summary, the loss of air quality experts in local authorities is a big part of the problem in terms of informing decision makers about the uncertainty, so they do not just say, “Oh, well, that number is 0.01 below the limit, so we’re fine,” when the error bar is 0.5 or something.”

“Yes, that is my experience too.”

“And not listening to experts.”

“The answers so far have been really interesting; thank you. I agree with the points on indoor air quality. Unfortunately, that is not part of this inquiry, but I hope we can look into it separately soon. I have a set of questions that are all about measurement versus modelling, although I know it is not as straightforw…”

“Zooming out, are there lessons that we can learn from outside the UK? Are there best-practice examples in terms of modelling that other countries are doing better than us?”

“So you are saying that, if anything, it should be more laissez-faire here so that we can use models developed in other countries where they are applicable to the geography. Kieran, would you agree?”

“Finally, I want to ask you about uncertainty. In my experience, outside of people in the engineering and science professions, quantifying uncertainty is not terribly well understood, including in local government. How is uncertainty currently quantified in the modelling, and do you feel that that is sufficiently clearl…”

“You have led me perfectly into my next question, which is about that. Fortunately, I have a background that helps me to understand this. When I worked in renewable energy, I was working with both wind measurements and models, so I know from first-hand experience that, surprisingly, models sometimes can be better than d…”

“I will drill down on that, but first I want to see whether Dr Holman and Dr Fuller agree with that analysis of where the weaknesses are, and whether there is anything they want to add.”

“Welcome, panel. Why do you think the Government were reluctant to publish the assessment and are still refusing to publish the unabridged version that we understand exists?”

“I certainly agree with you that the abridged summary report is stark. However, there are some fairly shocking specifics in the unabridged version, according to reporting that we have seen on ITV and elsewhere. That is about how, for example, the decline in Himalayan rivers could increase tension and even cause a nuclea…”

“You read my mind; that was going to be my follow-up question. Given the very stark warnings in even the abridged report, it seems clear that lots of individuals and organisations will need to take action. Whether that is politicians other than those in Government, such as those in local government and devolved nations,…”

“Quite. It is worth me being clear that I have not seen the full version. We on the Environmental Audit Committee have asked the Government if we can see it confidentially, and the Government are still considering our request, so we are in this unknown unknown situation as well.”

“Thank you. I am aware of time, so let’s move on.”

“Yes, thank you, Chair. I will dig a bit more into the independence point because the OEP has warned that meeting the 2030 target is now largely a matter of political choice. How willing would you be to publicly say that the Government have chosen not to meet legally binding environmental targets if that proves to be th…”

“Do you have anything to add, Professor Sutton? On this Committee we are always keen for specific recommendations, if you have them.”

“Presumably with the food strategy there is also an opportunity to incentivise more sustainable farming, which would mean fewer of those intensive livestock units.”