Speeches by Norris.

“On that point, Mr Murray, judge us by outcomes. I read those reports, too, and I accept the difficult history and I accept the journey, but I would also say we have taken £500 million out of hotel costs. We have taken £1 billion out of the cost of the system generally already. We are on a good journey with contracting …”

“We are working now. We have had matter of record. We have had provider engagement. We are doing internal design about what we are trying to get out of the system, how you move away from a purely geographic model. You look at different services that are provided within that—that is the process we are under, but it is im…”

“That we will use it when we are in a position that we have a replacement system that within that nine-month time period is ready to go.”

“The one advantage I have on predecessors is that we have inherited in this case over 1,000 lessons learned from those programmes. They were trying to stand those things up for the first time. I have a degree of sympathy, having sat in the chair I have sat in for nine months, about how hard it is. We stand on those shou…”

“What I have given the Committee is evidence that we are getting better for the taxpayer out of it. I understand that that is not where you are, Mr Murray, with your concern with the contracts themselves, but that is the job I have been doing in the process of what comes next, which I think is of primary importance.”

“Well, no, but I am curious enough to see what we are getting out of these contracts. I am curious enough to make sure that we have put the processes in place to take £1 billion out of this for the taxpayer. And you can tell me, Mr Murray, that that is not curious enough—that is fine by me. I think that is doing the rig…”

“I have a couple of points. I defend it first by saying it is not purely a cost calculation here, because the cost calculation says to take contingency accommodation, add in 1,000 for large sites. You take those 22,000 bedspaces, and go around the country, you buy them up in the places in the country that have the lowes…”

“I am curious, but—”

“I have not seen either way.”

“If you go right back to the beginning, the initial stage for any site will flag risks around community cohesion. Where are people in relation to that site in Crowborough town, other towns—Uckfield and so on? Those are flagged early in the process and we look at how that can be mitigated. The commitment I have made to l…”

“Again, as I said, I have not got the rolling timeframe in front of me. What I have offered for the Committee is data from which I based the judgment that I made to—”

“Of course, absolutely, but I am satisfied with what we are getting out of our contracts. I think we are getting the best for the taxpayer in the framing with which we are working.”

“I could not be stronger about this and on the point certainly on an exploded ordnance. People on that site are safe from ordnance. I want to be clear on that. Similarly, the wastewater and sewage facilities work as they are supposed to work, and people are not at risk from failing systems. Again, I cannot recognise tha…”

“It is hard, because I do not—these are not the contracts I would let, but—”

“I do not have the quarter-by-quarter figure in front of me, but, as I say, on those crucial KPIs—”

“Other facilities are in the area. I totally accept that we have a real duty of care to these people. They are, by definition, the most vulnerable in the country, reliant on the state for bed, board and all their necessities in life. There is a reason—it came up in the previous conversations—why people tend to stay ther…”

“Yes. The processes are improving. We think that that, again is borne out by the money that has come back as a result of that process.”

“Is what, sorry?”

“I would not recognise that characterisation in those ways. The people on those sites are in safe and legal accommodation.”

“That 70% figure is derived from our data, but it is not our figure. For example, on the KPIs relating to maintenance, we think they have had 98.5% compliance in the last quarter. We do take this very seriously, but I would not want the Committee to think that there is that magnitude of scale.”