Speeches by Lowe.

“Yes.”

“What do you consider success and what do you consider failure in terms of GDP growth? Have you told them that?”

“What do these regulators need to deliver for you to consider it successful growth? I am not clear.”

“I am still not clear: how do you define economic growth?”

“Can you define what you consider to be delivering growth?”

“Right. I asked a question of the Secretary of State for Business and Trade about “the number and proportion of senior civil servants within his Department that have (a) historic and (b) current directorships listed on Companies House.” In July 2023, there was one. What I am asking you—the question I am trying to get at…”

“I would rather watch what the hands are doing than what the mouth is saying. What we as a Committee want to see is some action.”

“Okay.”

“When you have machinated long enough, I think we need to have a report on exactly what that is. Will this “could” become a “should”, or will we be given all sorts of complex reasons why the MoD cannot make it a “should”? If a report like this NAO Report was done about my Department, I would be very worried and have all…”

“I think that word should be “should”, not “could”, which seems to be common sense. I hear your answer, and I hear you talking about the reasons why it is difficult, but you have to overcome those problems. This is about fraud and dishonesty, and as I said, this needs to be dealt with. We have basically moved from being…”

“I think my question is to Simon. I am again reading the MoD Report, and I would just like some clarity. It states: “The MoD told us…Fraud Defence and the police are also working jointly on a new investigative model for fraud and economic crime—which”—this is the key word—“could include joining police and Fraud Defence …”

“On that, perhaps you should start by getting your counter-fraud and police teams to trust and work together. That is your cultural problem; if people do not work together, nothing happens. I think I have done my bit for now, Chair.”

“If you run a whistleblowing line, you have to make it effective. You had 1,037 cases, of which 363 ended up being properly investigated by the police. If you do not have a properly functioning whistleblowing line, people will not whistleblow. Anyway, I think I have covered that off. I have one last question, because I …”

“But we do not want to talk generalities, Geoffrey. We want actual specifics.”

“You can have as many risk registers, processes and analytical tools as you like. In the end, you have to send people to prison for being dishonest. I know we have issues with the courts, which do not punish people properly, but in the end, people have to fear that when they break the law, when they are deceitful, when …”

“But what is lost, when you say lost assets? Most of them are apparently lost. What does that mean? Does anyone get punished for losing an asset? In my business, if somebody loses an asset with no justification, they have to pay for it.”

“Can I interrupt? You are talking in generalities. Let us go through the Report. On theft of assets: “Around two-thirds of these reports related to lost assets, with theft making up only 13%.” Can you define “lost assets”? On personnel management issues and information exploitation, the Report mentions “failure to follo…”

“I don’t quite know where to start. I don’t think this Report tells you about all the leakage that is taking place. When I look at the taxes being levied on farmers and small businesses that are forcing them to sell their farms and businesses, and I look at this leakage—you talk about £1.5 billion here—you are probably …”

“That is great. I understand that you have discussed this with the users, because in your document you mention ultimately charging for this system. As you know, the banks often used to be accused—including by myself—of getting between the wall and the wallpaper, in that it took a long time to get your money to go from A…”

“It is great that you are comfortable that you have that covered off, because otherwise, in my experience, people suffer huge downstream effects.”