Speeches by Murray.

“If we think about the experience with these three providers under the contract, when the previous Government tried to task them with setting up large sites, they failed spectacularly. The Northeye example—incredible levels of waste of public money. Are you sure that you have such a grip on the system that if you tasked…”

“When the providers appeared before us, they told us that safeguarding is not one of their key performance indicators with you in how you manage that contract, so are there any consequences for providers if they do not comply with safeguarding duties?”

“If we had literally anything to show for it. Sticking on that point about contracts, people’s frustrations with these contracts are enormous. First, there is nothing to show for them. Secondly, we had riots in the summer targeting some of this accommodation. Also, the profits that these companies have made are huge. On…”

“That is very Delphic, Minister. The structure of the contracts is the issue I am trying to drive at here, and what the Home Office’s long-term thinking will be on this. The Home Office told the Public Accounts Committee in 2020 that it would need five years of planning time to radically change the asylum accommodation …”

“That is positive to hear. That goes again to the structure of these contracts. If the money that had been spent over the last six years on these contracts had been invested in any kind of capital project or in any kind of local development, we would have something to show for it, but it has all gone on hotels and there…”

“What is a bridging programme?”

“We talked about the system that we have set up over the last five years, but let us focus a little bit on the future of the asylum accommodation system. The Government have been clear that you want to end the use of asylum hotels. First, asylum fluctuates. Sometimes there are increases and sometimes there are not. It i…”

“I understand that, but I am thinking about the dynamics baked into these contracts. It seems to me that you have an incentive to say to these providers, because of cost more than anything, “We do not want you to use hotels”, but their revenue goes up when you use hotels, so they do not have a financial incentive. They …”

“The problem is, why has that work not already been done? This is not a partisan issue.”

“Those are contractual responsibilities, but my question is: what happens if they do not fulfil them? It is not in the KPIs, so there is no contractual implication for them. What is the purpose, then, of the Home Office safeguarding hub?”

“Do you not think that in something as volatile as asylum, it is not a good idea for the Home Office to wait for things to stabilise before working out whether it is spending public money on something efficiently? Is that not a learning for the civil service here?”

“Do you think you make enough use of the data that that safeguarding hub generates? When we spoke to asylum seekers in accommodation and when you listen to some of the third sector reports, there are really serious safeguarding concerns out there. Are you sure that the Home Office is actually doing enough to address the…”

“We touched on the issue of age dispute and age assessment earlier, but these contractors are not statutory services. They do not have the kind of professional qualifications that child protection authorities would have. How confident are you that they are responding appropriately when an age dispute arises?”

“I want to come in on some of your points there, Mr Ridley, because what you are saying is very interesting. I do accept the Home Office was going through challenging situations at the time, but these contracts were huge even from the very beginning. There was always going to be massive amounts of public money going int…”

“My final question is: given the significantly higher mortality and complaint rates in Clearsprings-run accommodation, what investigations have you undertaken to understand why that is, and what action do you propose to take?”

“Cabinet Secretary, obviously this is a pilot and it is very localised at the moment. It will need to be evaluated in the round once it comes to the end, but one challenge that we have in Scotland is the extremely high number of drug deaths. 1,172 people died last year, and every single one was a tragedy. If the pilot i…”

“There is some international evidence, particularly on the west coast of the United States, where there can be quite big impacts on local communities where safe consumption takes place. I am thinking particularly of San Francisco. Do you look into that evidence and does that inform your view on safe consumption in the U…”

“We had a discussion with the Cabinet Secretary from Scotland earlier, where we talked about safe consumption as a pathway to recovery, as a step that people need to take before they can begin their rehabilitation. Do you have a view on whether safe consumption can be a step on a pathway to rehabilitation?”

“Sorry to interrupt. Are you saying that, even if the project is judged to be a success, you are agnostic on whether any further drug consumption facilities open?”

“Do you think that the international evidence around safe consumption rooms is evolving, or do you see it as remaining quite static in different jurisdictions where it is evaluated?”