Welcome to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. This is our second session on economic growth. I welcome our guests today: Councillor Tim McClelland, Alison McCullagh and Steven Norris. I will start with my questions. What is the economic situation in and between the different sub-regions of Northern Ireland? I will start with Steven.

Good morning, Members, and thank you for the invite to be here this morning. Northern Ireland, as Members will know, is a very close-knit economy, very closely linked. It is focused primarily around the urban centres in Belfast and in Derry/Londonderry. There is disparity in the regions of Northern Ireland, both at local government level and more broadly at county level as well. There are key sectoral strengths in each of those areas that actors like ourselves are building on continuously. If I think about our borough in particular, we sit on the periphery of Belfast, quite close to the ports, obviously with an international airport in our borough. We have a very strong advanced manufacturing sector, a very strong logistics and distribution sector, and we play on those strengths. As the Chair has indicated, that is not the strength everywhere. There are disparities; some regions have seen broader and faster growth than others. That is largely due to a number of factors in terms of the connectivity of the region, the infrastructure and the availability, primarily, of people. That has always dictated where growth has been witnessed. There have obviously been moves to improve that over the last number of years, and certainly in my time in local government we have seen a shift in terms of the distribution of investment and wealth creation across Northern Ireland, but it is still driven by those key factors around infrastructure, the availability of land and sites, and people.

Similarly, I suppose I would highlight a couple of things in addition to Steven’s comments. There is a significant difference between urban and rural areas. From my own council perspective, Fermanagh and Omagh is the largest land mass of the urban councils but has the smallest population. We have a large rural hinterland that impacts on our businesses. We have a small number of significant employers and quite a lot of SMEs, but they are microbusinesses, which would typically be less than five employees. I suppose that has an impact on productivity more generally and also on opportunities. As Steven noted, I think the infrastructure deficiencies are probably well known to the Committee, and they have certainly had an adverse impact on balanced economic development across Northern Ireland. While there are current efforts under way in Stormont for those to be addressed, I think they will take time.

Good morning, Chair. Similarly to my two colleagues, I would add that, from the perspective of my council, Armagh, Banbridge and Craigavon, we have an excellent rates base in terms of manufacturing—I am thinking of Almac, Moy Park, Thompson Aero and others. Our council was the first in these islands that did an agri strategy, because agri is extremely important within both Northern Ireland more widely and ABC. I suppose we have the divergence and the large manufacturing, and we also have the SMEs and the agrifood. From a logistics point of view, part of our council area skirts the A1 Belfast-Dublin corridor, which is obviously a huge advantage. However, having said that, we also have roads that are much less than optimum in terms of the infrastructure. I would leave my comments there at the moment.

You mentioned the impact on productivity, transport and infrastructure. What impact does sub-regional economic imbalance have on Northern Ireland?

Hopefully this will not be an unfair perspective, but I think the impact it has had is that Belfast has certainly been seen to grow, possibly at the expense of other regions. While we would all accept the obvious need for the capital to be strong, there probably has not been the focus on how it can support a wider economic vision for Northern Ireland. I appreciate that your focus will be more on the UKG perspective, but the Lyons review of Invest Northern Ireland showed that the focus was Belfast first, and by some distance after Belfast it would have been Derry/Londonderry, and then everywhere else. That is the legacy that we are dealing with, and that is the reality of sub-regional economic imbalance in Northern Ireland.

Could I come in on the back of the point about Invest NI? Yes, it is an improving picture with the chair, chief executive and so on and so forth, but the fact remains that within ABC council, there is something like 80 or 90 acres of land that has been under its control for 30 or 40 years. Nothing has happened with it, and the next thing we hear is, “Oh, we need development land.” I am talking about 80 or 90 acres within central Craigavon, so it is prime land—it is not as if it is out in the more rural setting. That is indicative of the Belfast-Derry/Londonderry show.

Steven, do you have anything to add to that?

To build on what Alison has said, I think the impact is on the availability of opportunity for people. Some of the legacy of that sub-regional approach is that, as Alison has indicated, the opportunities for people in the rural communities and areas of Northern Ireland are not the same as they are in other parts. It speaks to Alison’s point that that is just about the policy direction in terms of where investment and business development have happened in Northern Ireland over the last 20 or 30 years.

Good morning to you all. Tim, you represent NILGA, but obviously, you have more knowledge about ABC than anywhere, and we have Fermanagh and Omagh, and Antrim and Newtownabbey. Do your three respective councils use to the fullest extent all your economic development powers? I don’t mind who goes first.

I think the answer is yes, we do, within the powers that we have. You will be aware that there continues to be a considerable amount of power retained by central Government in Northern Ireland. In fact, from a Fermanagh and Omagh perspective, we were fortunate recently that the Productivity Institute at the University of Manchester undertook a review of us around place-based investment. One of the things that it recommended was a much more central role for local government in future economic development, not just for Fermanagh and Omagh but more widely. We have had the scenario in recent times of the establishment of local economic partnerships under the auspices of the Department for the Economy, which we welcome, but the view of local government certainly was that sufficient structures already existed through our labour market partnerships and through community planning structures, for those powers to be rolled out more effectively. Where there is a little bit of attention—Tim has mentioned the issue around land availability—is possibly an issue around the ability of local government to intervene specifically on matters that are currently viewed to be the responsibility of others. Again, the Lyons review certainly sought to, I think, establish a more enabling environment for local government to assist in Invest NI, around industrial land in particular. I know that a number of councils across Northern Ireland are pursuing that. Finally, on the powers that we are using, I think that city and growth deals are probably a very good example of how councils can be enabled to do more. We would hope, with the support of the Committee in due course, that that is something for the future.

Thank you very much for that. Do either of you have anything to add? It’s comprehensive enough for me.

I would chime in that, obviously, we are 10 years since RPA. In terms of the wider local government, we have built up the skills sets—Alison has referenced the LMPs, the LEPs and so on. It is not that the skills are not there. I think we are now looking to enhance and move forward. The answer to your question from an ABC perspective is, I do think that we are using most of the powers that we have.

The only thing I would add is that, from an Antrim and Newtownabbey perspective, we have a strong track record of pushing the boundary on economic development. If colleagues from Invest NI were in the room, they would probably describe us as a thorn in their side. We take them to task so much. Some examples of that aspiration are our co-investment in things like the advanced manufacturing and innovation centre, to which the council has contributed £10 million—a sizeable sum for a local government organisation in Northern Ireland to contribute to a capital project. We see the benefit of that for Northern Ireland and our borough, and we think it was a very important asset. Gavin, I think you were at our investment event here in London a number of weeks ago, where we were trying to put our best foot forward in showcasing Antrim and Newtownabbey and Northern Ireland to the broader investment community. Yes, we have the powers. We probably pushed them to the absolute boundary that we can in terms of maximising the impact for our area.

Good morning and thank you for making the effort to come here today. Obviously, the NI Executive and the UK Government can do a lot in this space. That is partly why we are doing the review and this piece of work. Do you think the NI Executive and the UK Government policies in relation to growth and development should be focused on ensuring the balance across the sub-regions, or on investing in regional strengths?

For Father Ted fans, I am tempted to say it is an “ecumenical matter”. I would have thought that the primary focus should be on addressing regional imbalance, because I don’t think we’ll be able to fully unlock strengths and, in particular, new sectors until regional balance is addressed.

In your previous answer, you said that there were major infrastructure deficiencies. Can you just unpick what they look like?

Certainly. In the Fermanagh and Omagh district, we have 200 metres of dual carriageway in the entirety of the district. The all-island regional rail review, which was conducted recently, recommended upgrading rail infrastructure. There are currently no trains in our district and in other areas west of the Bann, other than around the north coast, so the all-island regional rail review recommended that rail should be reinstated to 31 out of 32 counties. Fermanagh is also being excluded within the future plans for rail investment. I know the current Minister has indicated her intention to review that at the soonest available opportunity. Although we have benefitted in recent years, largely as a result of the confidence and supply on full-fibre connectivity, we still lag behind all other parts of Northern Ireland and the UK in terms of mobile connectivity and broadband infrastructure. I apologise for croaking—it is nothing to do with ill-gotten gains in London last night, I can assure you. The problem is that, particularly post covid, technology is an increasingly important part of where businesses choose to invest. If that basic infrastructure is not there, investment decisions will happen elsewhere.

I think I am in the same column as the previous speaker, Alison. On the basis that a rising tide lifts all boats, that needs to be put right first right across the region—if I understand the premise of your question—before concentrating on the strengths, important though they are.

Not to sound political, but I would probably hedge my bets and say it’s probably a bit of both. There is a need to tackle the sub-regional disparity in Northern Ireland—there is no doubt about that. That, in itself, will facilitate greater investment and economic development across the whole region, but there is merit in trying to achieve that through a focus on core areas of specialism. Investment has been made across the piece in terms of city and growth deals, a number of which in Northern Ireland are pursuing fairly significant capital projects, all of which have a sectoral specialism, whether that be creative industries, medtech or advanced manufacturing. We will have world-leading centres of excellence in some of the key sectors that Northern Ireland is renowned for its expertise and experience in. We have to find a way of building around that expertise and building the industry-base around that, but in doing so we must find a way to spread that wealth and make it more equitable.

My colleague Sinéad McLaughlin in the Assembly is bringing forward a regional imbalance Bill, and she just got the green light from the Speaker before Christmas that that will come through in this mandate. Obviously, it is about a mindset shift as well as targets and monitoring. That is open for consultation, but are there specific things that you think would be useful in a Bill like that, such as trying to design in thinking around regional imbalance within Stormont?

One of the criticisms I suppose we are both often subject to, but that we also target, is around silo working. I do not think there has been the full consideration at a Stormont level of how genuinely addressing economic inactivity can start to properly address, for example, health and wellbeing outcomes, anti-poverty initiatives and educational attainment. We tend to work in boxes as opposed to a more integrated approach. Certainly, I hope the Bill would allow for us—if we are considering areas in their entirety or at a sub-regional level—to look at all the complementary strands that will actually make a difference around economic inactivity and how we properly address regional imbalance as a result of that. The other area that could potentially be looked at is some of the new initiatives and schemes that we have seen working elsewhere, even on the island of Ireland. One of the things that we have a tendency to do in Northern Ireland is perhaps not be as fleet of foot as we could be, and the opportunity time is lost very quickly. Colleagues who are much further on the journey in city and growth deals than we would be in Fermanagh and Omagh would have expressed some frustration at just how long it took for decisions to be taken and commitments to be made. But once those have been taken, I think everyone can see the real benefit. If we are serious over the next five to 10 years, we need to start taking decisions much more quickly.

So it is culture as much as strategy as well. Do either Tim or Steven have anything to add?

I will chime in with one thing. I do not have any specifics as to what the particular Bill may or may not include, but I think whatever is included needs to be well thought out. It does not need to be something that is put in almost for the sake of it. It has to be practical, it has to work, and there has to be assurance that it will work in five years’ time.

That is what you will get from Sinéad; I cannot promise what the Assembly will do.

That is what I think is important.

I agree with Alison. I think there is a silo mentality in some of the Executive Departments—they are doing good work in most instances in terms of some of the big challenges. Economic activity is definitely a very big challenge, particularly around the skills gap that we have and the ability to attract people into employment. That is controlled to a large extent by DFC, and DFE control another element of it. They are not working at odds with each other in any great way, but they are not as joined up as they could be. As Alison has mentioned, it is about anything that breaks down some of the silos and, really importantly, includes local government as a key partner in that. We roll out a lot of the activity that is funded through Department for Communities and DFE, particularly now as we have introduced the local economic partnerships, and we have colleges, universities and business sectors around that table. We have the mechanism to engage and think it through. We are obviously also the closest actor to the ground in terms of economic development in Northern Ireland, and our teams across our three councils will be out dealing daily with businesses and hearing first hand what they are saying. We have a lot of very important evidence and detail that could feed into any of those processes.

I want to pose a few questions on the city and growth deals. What are your individual assessments on how effective city and growth deals are in supporting the growth of the Northern Ireland economy?

Antrim and Newtownabbey are part of the Belfast region city deal, which is the most advanced in terms of its delivery in Northern Ireland. It has probably had the ability to bring actors at senior level across central Government, local government and education together in a way that no other mechanism has been able to achieve, and across a broader geography. The focus of the city deal projects through that fund has largely been capital infrastructure projects. We have seen a lot of that come out of the ground, particularly in our area, as I have said already, about the Advanced Manufacturing Innovation Centre, which we hope will open in spring this year. That is absolutely game-changing for advanced manufacturing companies in Northern Ireland. There is a plethora of other projects. Setting aside Alison’s very valid point about the bureaucracy and the speed at which the delivery can take place—we are circa 10 years post BRCD’s launch and we are still at the build stage, and still at concept stage with some of the projects, so there is definitely an agility that is not quite there—it has had the ability to be a catalyst for economic growth that has also levered in private sector funding, which is often difficult to achieve, as complementary funding to projects across the region. From my perspective—from an entrepreneurial perspective—it has been a catalyst for growth. It needs more agility. As we reach the 10, 11-year mark, what we are thinking about now is how we continue that legacy, and what the next project or the next city deal looks like for us, because it will be about how we activate those sites and how we lever the capital builds that we have produced over the last 10 years.

From an ABC perspective, it has certainly been a good example of how councils can lead. Obviously, ABC is involved daily with the Mid South West deal. One of the two or three major projects that we are trying to bring home is the agri-innovation hub. If you can forgive me, Chair, for being slightly realistic on this, I believe it would be the wrong result to just build a big shiny building and have a nice opening ceremony, but not to have done the planning for what is going to be in it in five or 10 years. That speaks to the issue that, yes, the growth deals are very much focused on capital, but where is training, the upskilling and the people development? That is where the growth deals maybe do not tick all of the boxes.

While that is possibly understandable, it is slightly disappointing that it needs the impetus of the deal to bring other partners together to maximise what the city deal initiatives have initiated. Surely to heaven, there must be some people who just say, “Right. This has done this. We do not need some instruction from on high to bring these parties and people together, to move it forward and maximise it.” It does not need a big brother template, surely.

I agree; it should not need it. You heard me at the start say that it would be wrong just to put a building there for the sake of it. There has to be a focus, and it has to be future proofed as much as possible.

Respectfully, I would say that there has not been a requirement. The reason why there is economic development in the Mid South West region—the reason why it is the economic engine of Northern Ireland—is precisely because over the last 30, 40 years people have gone in with their own investment and money, in spite of infrastructure deficiencies, to make a difference. What I think the city and growth deal template has allowed is significant capital investment of scale, and probably on a scale that we certainly have not seen outside it. It is much more common in the rest of the UK than has been the case in Northern Ireland. To answer your question, yes, they have the potential to significantly change productivity. Given the stage that the projects are at, it is obviously premature to say to what extent. On the basis of the outline business cases and the full business cases—to use that cliché—it has game-changing potential. I will highlight a couple of specific challenges that may be relevant to the Committee, and from a Mid South West perspective in particular. As you will know, the configuration of growth deals is fifty-fifty: 50% from Treasury and 50% from the Northern Ireland Executive. Our infrastructure deficiencies in the Mid South West led us, certainly prior to then Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s announcement of our growth deal, seeking to see whether there was any opportunity to rebalance the funding pot. That was unsuccessful but, I think, is ultimately something we are going to have to return to, because two of our key projects in the Mid South West, the Enniskillen bypass and the Cookstown bypass, are, it could be argued, core Government responsibilities. City and growth deals were always about additionality—added value—and so things like AMIC and Studio Ulster, which ordinarily would never have happened. I think we are probably reaping a little in terms of the under-investment in infrastructure in the past by using our growth deal money for it. It is very welcome, of course. The second thing I will highlight is the challenge of not having a university presence in the Mid South West region. That is a particular challenge on us securing the digital and innovation 50% of the deal. We have had very good support from Treasury colleagues and from the Department for the Economy, but the reality is that in the Belfast region, in the Derry/Londonderry deal and in the Causeway deal, university partners are leading digital innovation projects. That is not happening across the Mid South West, and I think we need to consider pragmatically the risk to the deal and how alternative solutions can be unlocked.

You mentioned the joint funding between Westminster and the Executive. Could we briefly explore the effectiveness of the joint working between the Government and the Executive? Is Westminster complementing and bolstering the Executive’s sub-regional development plan?

I would probably cite as an example the fact that the Department for Business and Trade now has an office in Belfast. I suppose the question—I don’t know the answer to it—is how closely they work with Invest NI and with local partners in Northern Ireland. I guess it comes back to what colleagues said earlier. So much of this is silo mentality and, sadly, when there is a silo mentality, the people and the businesses on the ground almost always lose out. So it would be a huge missed opportunity if the Department for Business and Trade were not working hand in glove with the local agencies.

I think, from our own practical experience, there are good governance structures in place around the city and growth deals. I think there is good complementary working. I am mindful that the introduction, certainly in the Mid South West context, came prior to the restoration of the Northern Ireland Executive. We have had very good support across the Executive Departments, leading directly and particularly to Treasury—many in this room, I know, were involved as well—unpausing the Mid South West growth deal. So our sense is that it is working well. From a Northern Ireland perspective, we are separately, in Fermanagh and Omagh, the recipient of levelling-up funding, which is also very welcome. I think we would probably welcome a more levelling-up type of approach to Stormont administration of some of our other grants. We have found it very efficient and very straightforward.

Mr Norris, do you want to say a word or two on this?

Just that I think it is encouraging that there is broad overlap between the DFE Minister in Northern Ireland’s strategy for Northern Ireland and the industrial strategy at UK Government level. It is encouraging that there is overlap there. What has always been missing is a broader economic development strategy for Northern Ireland that is built on UK Government policy that local government, like ourselves, can then feed into and address. While it is encouraging that there is overlap and complementarity between the two policies that act in terms of directing economic growth, I think there is more work to be done on that.

Picking up on what you said earlier, Steven, particularly about the Belfast city deal, both city and growth deals, by their very nature, require very mature partnerships and doing what you can to get out of siloed ways of working. From that, because it is expected that sometimes partners will take a step back because other areas will need that level of investment, how do we ensure that, on the multiple layers of working with the devolved settlement, this happens?

It is a good question. As you rightly say, the development of the partnership in the Belfast region has taken years. It spans multiple layers of government, and it is probably seen as the closest working of Departments in Northern Ireland with Invest Northern Ireland, with local partners coming together to deliver projects in a way that probably has not been achieved before. As Alison mentioned, the governance structures that have been put in place around that mean that it is a very solid, robust structure for delivering projects. In our area in particular, you have a project that is led by Queen’s University, part funded by the council and the city deal, on Invest Northern Ireland land, supported by DFE policy. It has actually brought together a whole range of partners to deliver that project. The embedding of those relationships has then proliferated other benefits, in terms of policy outside the city and growth deal region. The partnership still meets very regularly in relation to other projects and other opportunities for drawing down additional funding. It has embedded a mechanism of co-working, particularly between the six council areas and the other partners, that maybe did not exist before. That has certainly strengthened our joint proposition around development and investment.

I know that your area is not quite so far developed in that.

The only thing I would add is that, while we may not have had the formality of relationships that city and growth deals obviously require, we have a very long-established track record of working, particularly with the private sector, but also with other key Government Departments. On the maturity of relationships, as Tim mentioned earlier, we are just over 10 years into local government reform. I think what city and growth deals have shown, even on the back of 10 years of community planning, is that councils are accustomed to facilitating and managing effective cross-party, cross-working relationships. The big difference with city and growth deals has been the scale of the prize. The more confidence that is established through those structures, hopefully, the more similar initiatives could develop in the future. The only other brief comment I would add is that, again from a Fermanagh and Omagh perspective, we obviously have a very large, lengthy border with the Republic of Ireland. So it is very normal for us to have formal, established cross-border partnerships. Indeed, we have traditionally done that through the PEACE programmes and previous rural development programmes, to facilitate co-operation at a cross-border level also.

In terms of the ABC perspective, in the governance around Mid South West, as Alison has said, the structures are all very well in place. There is good working among partners and so on. While we might not be as far down the road in getting projects on the ground as Belfast, there are certainly good foundations.

Relationship building takes time, and you need to do that before you get the rest of it done.

Alison, you mentioned infrastructure pretty early on in question 1, and my question is on infrastructure. Throughout my time on the Committee, we have talked about the deficiency that Northern Ireland suffers from, and how that is often a choke point for economic growth going forward. This is a question to all three members of the panel: if you could prioritise what infrastructure should be updated as quickly as possible, what would it be, and could you give us a broad assessment of where infrastructure in Northern Ireland is at the moment?

On the broader piece, as councils we probably all submitted to the Porter review—certainly Mid South West did. That showed a fairly bleak assessment of infrastructure more generally across Northern Ireland. There is a reliance on road infrastructure, as we have mentioned. That in itself is not necessarily problematic if the roads are of the required standard, but we know they are not. Around road infrastructure, the wish list or priorities would certainly include the A5, which is a key connectivity route on the island of Ireland and is bedevilled by legal complexities—that is currently where that particular project is at—as well as the Enniskillen bypass. As some of you may be aware, Enniskillen is Ireland’s only island town, so there is literally one way in and out. A bypass is critical to ensure both the flow of tourism traffic and the movement of goods. The Cookstown bypass is also critical, and work has been done on the east bypass for Armagh as well. That might not sound very good for our green credentials, but there has to be pragmatism. It is likely to be road investment first, before the real investment of scale can take over. The second bit—on enabling economic infrastructure—is the absence of a suitable and sustainable supply of industrial land. Tim said there are 80 or 90 underused acres. At the risk of sounding Monty Pythonesque, if only we had that! We literally have no developable land in the Fermanagh and Omagh district, and the same is the case in Mid Ulster. That means that if a company came to our area to invest tomorrow, we could not accommodate it. That certainly needs to be changed urgently, as does the situation in relation to completing the full fibre network. We also need to address deficiencies on mobile telecoms, which, as you may be aware from other work, were severely damaged by Storm Éowyn and have not been put on a more regular footing since.

I suppose I would start off on the railways. I will set out a couple of examples. No. 1 would be a potential link between Belfast city centre and the international airport, and then, within ABC, there would be the potential Portadown-Armagh rail link. I think they are important. Roads might not be very specific to what we are really chatting about this morning, but they are economic development. In my own council area, which is a huge rural area, if a road is impassable—as they have been in the last few mornings—that immediately impacts economic growth. The mum or the dad have to stay at home to mind the kids, because the school bus does not run and so on. These on-the-ground infrastructure pieces—having roads gritted and so on—seem very peripheral, but they are also very topical; we are talking about economic growth here. It is about getting those types of situations and scenarios reduced, as far as possible, if not eliminated. From the ABC perspective, while internet connectivity is not absolutely fantastic, it is probably better than further west or maybe further north-west. There is always room for improvement on that one.

I feel at a disadvantage going last on this question, since Antrim and Newtownabbey does have some motorway and does have an international airport. My story is not going to sound as convincing as Alison’s, and Councillor Tim has already asked for the rail link to the international airport, so he stole my thunder. We do have developable land—I know that that is something Alison is struggling with—but the infrastructure to support that development does not exist. My colleagues have covered a lot of it, but what I would add is the waste water infrastructure, which I know the Committee has heard about before. Particularly in the built-up urban area in Greater Newtownabbey, there is a very big challenge in terms of the capacity of the network and water treatment, and all the issues that there are. That extends to electricity and to connections of all sorts—you talked about broadband and fibre, and everything. Just because parts of our borough of Antrim and Newtownabbey are semi-urban, that does not mean that we do not experience those infrastructural challenges as well. Once we get past skills—the big question that any investor coming to Northern Ireland asks is, “Where am I getting my 100 or 200 people, and how do we get them trained?”—the next question they always ask is, “Will I have power of the capacity that I need? Will I be able to connect my building to the sewer network?” So, for me, it is that. The only other point I will make on the airport piece is that, although progress has been made on the train link—which is really encouraging, particularly around the movement of people from the international airport out—one of the challenges we have with infrastructure around the international airport is the road network. We have 8 million passengers passing through the international airport on an annual basis, and that number is increasing as the airport continues to invest in the airport site and the development of routes. But you come out of the airport on to what can only be described as a B-class road, with potholes all over it. So, as well as the big infrastructure pieces—I know that train lines are very costly—there are simple tasks that could be undertaken that would help Northern Ireland as a gateway.

On skills, looking at our reports around those agglomeration issues, there seems to be a 31% productivity gap between Belfast and Derry/Londonderry, yet Londonderry/Derry is served by both a train line and an airport. It seems to me that in Northern Ireland you have to start from where you are at, and 82% of graduates come out of Belfast. So if you want the agglomeration, in terms of industry, skills and infrastructure, the skills bit is massively weighted to one part of the Province, effectively. How do we go about improving sub-regional economic equality, particularly in terms of the educational piece? Alison, you talked about university-level—tertiary—education, but there is also the issue of Derry being the only island on the island of Ireland without its own independent university. How can we begin to develop those skills? What can the UK Government do to help enable that?

I suppose there are a couple of things. I am not saying that this is unique to Northern Ireland, but I think there is a cultural issue continuing around university education as the only route available. We have seen, particularly in recent years, the value of industry-level apprenticeships, and industry themselves determining that another route is for school leavers—16 and 17-year-olds—to go straight into employment and to be trained on the job and progressed, typically through universities, but sometimes through FE colleges. That is something that we perhaps need to address more at second level in Northern Ireland, to show that there are other pathways available. I think that our model of education in Northern Ireland is probably relatively traditional. As the Committee will be aware, the MASN cap is still in place. Our funding model is perhaps making things more challenging as well, in terms of additional places becoming available for students generally, but certainly for Northern Ireland students. We do have a brain drain. The work that we have done, not just within Fermanagh and Omagh but more widely across the border regions, tends to show that when students leave to go to university, it is very unusual for them to come home, and much more unusual if they go to university, or third-level education, in England, Scotland or Wales. One of the things that we could do is look at skills more holistically across Northern Ireland. Again, I think it is split across a number of areas by way of responsibility. It is regrettable that, when we looked at city and growth deals as a package, we perhaps did not consider a skills strand that complements all those deals. I appreciate that the funding is largely capital, but really it should have been underpinned by a skills approach and the skills that we need to transform into the economy of the future. The final thing I would say at this juncture is that we have quite an expertise within our own district around renewable energies and materials, production and manufacturing. Certainly, there appears to be a very significant opportunity for direct partnerships between universities and large-scale companies such as Encirc, Mannok and others. I am not sure there is fully the investment to support those coming so far west. It may be more attractive for universities to stay fairly close to their own geography. If there are things that we can do to make the geographic distance a little more favourable, that in itself could be useful.

Alison is 100% right about everything she has said. Antrim and Newtownabbey lost a university campus in our patch—it consolidated into Belfast. We had one, and we do not have one any more. We have an FE college now in our patch, and it delivers a whole range of skills and training. The challenge we face is how we address the needs of industry and listen to what they are telling us. We have a very successful model of labour market partnership intervention that is funded through the Executive to support engaging very directly with employers to understand what their business needs are. As Alison indicated, the funding model in the FE sector is geared very much towards volume, and volume in particular course areas—not necessarily those that industry is demanding. What you end up having to do is either retrain or reskill people coming out of FE college into the positions that are available, because industry demand is different from what is being supplied. There is as big difficulty there in terms of skill supply versus skill demand in Northern Ireland. Alison is also right about that traditional route still being prevalent in Northern Ireland. Our council and others have done a lot of work in trying to push alternative routes into employment, training and skills through apprenticeships. There is still a disparity there between the uptake of apprenticeship places in Northern Ireland versus the rest of GB. There are reasons for that, and the value and cost to business of them is one of those difficulties. There is a piece we need to do in terms of examining how we better understand industry need and then build our skills agenda around that. We have really good reports in relation to the skills barometer, which is undertaken to indicate what the demand is and what level the demand is at—that is the other element of it, because there is a mismatch in terms of the level of the qualification. We have too many people coming out at levels 2 and 3, when we need levels 3 and 4, and sometimes level 5. Again, we work on that, and I know others do as well. We need to do anything we can to make sure the agendas of those different actors in that space are aligned.

Again, I agree with Alison and Steven completely. From an ABC perspective, we have a further education college on three sites. At one stage, maybe 20-odd years ago, Queens had a campus in Armagh City. To be honest, I do not think it is there any more; I think it has been consolidated back to Belfast. Certainly, on the apprenticeship piece, it is something that is not going to change overnight, because for so long, it has been, “My son or daughter is going to uni.” While that will not change overnight, I think there are signs of improvement. There are signs that more of our young people are going down the apprenticeship route, because, No. 1, it gives them independence; they can obviously earn money while they are going through, and so on. So that is good. On a very personal level, in terms of the brain drain, of my oldest two children, one is in Nottingham and one is in Liverpool, and I only wish that they were studying in Northern Ireland. They went back on Sunday after the Christmas break and, to be honest, the house was very quiet. That is a very personal comment, but it shows the issue that ordinary, decent families in Northern Ireland have in terms of the brain drain.

We are exporting our best resource.

Indeed.

Why did you not export them to Manchester? That would be my next question.

If we are going to talk about economic growth, it is impossible to avoid planning as an inhibitor to growth. I know you are not collectively or individually solely responsible for planning; there are obviously regional aspects to it. Warren Stephens, the US ambassador, gave an address to the Northern Ireland chamber of commerce just before Christmas to indicate the damage that the bureaucracy of the planning process is doing to economic growth. Alison, Dalradian has been in your patch since 2009, wishing to exploit a huge resource and bring huge investment. I know you cannot answer politically, but from a process perspective, that is now 17 years of planning processes from which we have seen no progress. Steven, we are benefiting from a salt mine just above your borough that is providing salt for the whole of Northern Ireland, the whole western side of Scotland and the north-west of England, which would not get planning today. I genuinely do not want to draw you on the rights and wrongs of any particular application; I am just highlighting that I think it is outrageous that, 17 years on, there is still no progress for Dalradian, and that is but one example. However, from an individual perspective, what can you do as local authorities, and what are you asking of regional or national Government, to ensure that planning considerations are not the inhibitor to economic growth that they have been?

Coincidentally, I would be the SOLACE lead on planning issues across the 11 councils, so I will maybe just make some general comments, and dwell briefly on the specifics. Planning in Northern Ireland has probably been subject to more reviews and assessments—certainly within a council setting—than any other function that we deliver. The most recent work, which was undertaken a couple of years ago by the Northern Ireland Audit Office and our own Public Accounts Committee, led to the development of a planning improvement programme. That is a collective initiative involving the Department for Infrastructure, which, for colleagues not from Northern Ireland, is, if you like, the 12th planning authority and retains a significant number of powers, particularly in relation to regionally significant applications. That work included a number of streamlining initiatives, with a particular focus on statutory consultees and what we would call the front-loading of quality applications. That is making a difference; certainly, the most recent statistics, which came out just prior to Christmas, show that there has been some demonstrable improvement. They have also shown that major applications in particular—those determined at a local level as well as within the DFI—are taking longer than they should and longer than the statutory window. On the changes that we have asked for, and things that we think could improve, the first would be how applications are actually submitted; there is quite a low bar. I am not saying this is necessarily always adopted by applicants, but relatively little needs to be submitted to allow an application to be made valid. One of the things that councils have taken on board is the introduction of our own validation checklists, which is about ensuring that as much information is front-loaded as possible to enable not only a timely decision but no surprises for an applicant coming in. That is bearing fruit, and it is probably being put on a statutory footing. The second thing happening at a central Government level, through some of the transformation bids funded by Stormont, is a particular focus on key statutory consultees. Those are mainly DFI, for roads and rivers, as well as the Northern Ireland Environment Agency, for some of the environmental considerations. We have a particular concern on the slowness of the NIEA responses, because they are holding up a very significant number of agrifood applications right across the 11 councils. If there were perhaps a greater focus within NIEA in coming to its responses, that would significantly address the backlog.

In my mind, there needs to be a statutory bar that says, “If you are a statutory consultee, and you do not respond within four weeks, it is a nil response”, and you then move on without them. There is another aspect to this, which SOLACE has a role in: the shared environmental services. They are now introducing considerations that go far beyond their vires, and they are impacting economic growth and development, particularly within the agrifood sector and your borough, as well as Tim’s.

Your view on the scope of what SES is doing would not necessarily be shared more widely. The piece I would say on the NIEA and the deemed “no response” is that councils have done that, and they do it; in fact, in Fermanagh and Omagh we deem a “no response” quite frequently. The difficulty is that there can be legal vulnerabilities, particularly on environmental matters.

It requires legal change, but I think that legal change needs to occur. I could go to each of you, as I have a series of questions that colleagues want me to ask, but I am abusing their patience in asking these questions, although I think that planning is a huge inhibitor to economic growth.

Very briefly on Dalradian—I know you do not want to go into details—it is important that I say on the record, from the Fermanagh and Omagh perspective, that we have registered our objections to the application. However, we have also said at the public inquiry stage that a decision obviously needs to be taken as a matter of urgency to provide clarity for all views on the project.

I think that is fair. I am just making the point that it is 17 years on, and it is a total disgrace that a decision has not been made thus far. Yes, there are competing interests and aspirations, and I get that—I do not think it is fair to draw you in that over and above the corporate position of your council. I want to ask you about Encirc. When I visited Encirc, I thought that people on the Committee would be amazed if they visited Encirc. You drive in and see nothing, and then there is this enormous facility that is making 1 billion glass bottles per year. It is staggering and fascinating, and it is a wonderful visit. However, it is being clobbered by this new levy on the carbon aspects of what is a recyclable glass product. The Prime Minister has also visited Encirc’s facility in Liverpool. You have a borough perspective; you are the farthest edge of the south-west of the United Kingdom. You have this huge employer manufacturing glass that most people will not have heard of, and it has a huge scale of economic benefit for you. However, there is a cost consequence both in energy and from this new levy in the extended responsibility scheme. How much traction do you get as council chief executive, on behalf of that business, with regional government? How much do you think there needs to be an awareness of the negative impact of national Government policy—you can use the Committee as a forum to do it—on your business within your constituency? It is a huge economic driver for you and a provider of services for the entire United Kingdom, and it provides rates and employment in an area where there are few other large employers like Encirc.

First, I share your comments about both the quality of the operation and the sheer scale. For those who have not been, it is literally in the most remote part of remote County Fermanagh, right on the border. In fact, prior to Christmas, the board of the Utility Regulator for Northern Ireland was meeting and they happened to meet in Enniskillen. Together with one of the lead officers from Encirc, I had the opportunity to meet them. The point that we made specifically was about the other clobbering that you referenced—the energy differential and the significant difference between the operation in Cheshire, which is the other Encirc plant, and the operation in Derrylin in Fermanagh. It is almost—I am not using language in a scaremongering way—uneconomical to operate where we are, or where Encirc is. On the leverage question, my understanding is that the relevant Northern Ireland Government Ministers have visited the Derrylin site and are extremely supportive, but are not in a position, or at least so far have not been in a position, to enable UKG to mandate for the change that will be required around energy policy to make a significant difference for Encirc. What we are doing is, again through city and growth deals, looking at the potential around initiatives that would help around decarbonisation, which in turn would reduce some of the energy demand. But that is obviously a long-term intervention and measure. The extended producer responsibility scheme is causing particular concern. The company is remodelling some of its business effort as a result of it. Certainly, as I understand it—again, across from the Solace perspective; the 11 councils—we are not detecting a sense of change within UKG around that and nor has there really been any meaningful transition to allow for companies to prepare as they would have liked. I would highlight two other elements for Encirc in particular. I know it is not really a focus for us today, but the apprenticeship levy is also relevant because, again, they are paying out for something that Northern Ireland businesses do not benefit from. If we are looking more widely at regional or subregional economic growth or imbalance, there does not appear to be a willingness to address policy levers at UKG, which may be having an unintended consequence in more remote areas of Northern Ireland. The final point I would highlight is the proximity to the Irish border. Grant levels of intervention are totally different in north and south. The Derrylin plant is clearly within the UK—within County Fermanagh. How long it can continue to be innovative without direct changed interventions from UKG, I genuinely do not know. With colleagues, I am visiting Grantham next month with the Encirc team to look at possible solutions, particularly around the green energy solutions there, to see whether they can be applied locally. If there is anything that we can do from a council perspective, we will do it.

Thank you; that is helpful as a scene-setter. To be fair to colleagues, I will ask you a triplet of questions of the five that you are supposed to get. You can answer them as briefly and succinctly as you wish. The Industrial Strategy Council in Northern Ireland does not have a representative. Should it have? Should there be a joint delivery unit between the UK Government and the Northern Ireland Executive strategies and a formal mechanism for you to engage? The Government have announced Northern Ireland’s enhanced investment zone to focus on advanced manufacturing. What is necessary to make a success of that across our region? It is not fair to always look at you, Alison, but you are looking at me, so—

I think we should have a representative and a link in, in terms of the wider strategy and council. In terms of the innovation zone or similar, there has been very little engagement with local government on this concept. There have been initial discussions, as I understand it, within DFE. I hope there will be a mature consideration of what is needed and that there will be a mapping up of where companies are. I assume we may be looking Northern Ireland-wide—I do not know—but I hope that that will actually be taken on board. There will be serious evidence-gathering before decisions are made.

From my perspective, the important thing is that, as we look at issues here globally, we do not want to be reinventing the wheel. We do not want an initiative or whatever just for the sake of an initiative. There has to be the joined-up approach that colleagues have talked about, which is all about communication. It is all about being open and honest because, in the end, when we are not—or when institutions are not—economic development suffers and, therefore, our people suffer. The important thing for all of us round this table is our people.

I will be brief. Yes, definitely, there should be representation. That is an absolute given, so that we can feed in positively and constructively to the strategy and delivery. On the investment zone, I agree with Alison: the process in general means that local government has not had the input I think we should have in terms of our function around economic development. What I would say is that the subject matter of that investment zone will largely pass many businesses in Northern Ireland by. We need to ensure that we support the zone with the enabling infrastructure, upskilling and funding needed to allow the 86% that are microbusinesses in Northern Ireland to understand what the investment zone is and how they can tap into it. There will be organisations that are primed, ready and able to understand what that opportunity looks like but the vast majority will not. From our council perspective, we would look at what mechanisms to put in place to allow businesses to avail of the opportunities that will come through that.

I am going to turn to the relationship with the Republic. Before I do, as a new member of the Committee, can I pick up on something that Alison mentioned earlier? You talked about the unintended consequences of national policy, particularly on issues in Northern Ireland. To what extent do you or Northern Ireland see this Committee as your conduit into that discussion and making that case?

The honest answer is probably not as well as we should. When I was over with colleagues at the time of the unpausing of our growth deal, just over 12 months ago, the point was made that we both individually and collectively should consider Westminster more than we do. That is a fair comment. Certainly, within our own council we would wish to consider how best to deploy your offer and the availability you can bring to influence some of these changes.

Could we do more?

Coming into the session this morning, I thought that I had had it right. I hope that the session today can be the catalyst and kick-start for you guys to know firmly that we have 10 years’ experience of the local government sector under our belts on the ground in Northern Ireland. Please let’s continue the conversation; let’s continue building on today. That would be one of the best outcomes from our session this morning.

I agree.

Thank you; I find the insights hugely helpful. I turn to the relationship with the Republic, and the economic opportunities and challenges from that relationship. Given the sizeable differences in labour productivity between the north and the south, what are the costs and benefits of that relationship?

In terms of the broad ROI piece, I would make a couple of comments. Obviously, ROI are more keen on their national development plans, whether that is in agri or industrial. They are more into national development plans than we in the UK generally are; that is a fair comment for Northern Ireland. Because such plans are not there, it leaves us at an immediate disadvantage: perhaps we do not have the strategic points right that could mean improvement and so on. There should be focus on that. There is another thing—maybe this is a personal view, but I believe it has some sense. Whether it is nimbleness, the ability to think outside the box or the ability to push the boundaries of what is allowable: the Republic are generally better at that than UKG and the NI Executive. I am not for one moment referencing anything outwith the law or outwith process, but there is just the nimbleness to think outside of the box. ROI does that better than UKG does.

There are clear structural differences between the economy in the north and the economy in the south. There are levers at our fingertips that we could use to enhance that relationship and to make it more equitable between the two jurisdictions. Having said that, I think the growth of the economy in the south and the speed at which it has grown has presented opportunities for companies looking to expand. What comes with that, then, are all the challenges that we have already referenced in terms of how we facilitate some of that development, particularly in Antrim and Newtownabbey—again, I am putting my hat on. It is probably the logistical distribution hub of Northern Ireland; anybody who moves goods about is probably based in our borough. Largely, they are because of the ability to move goods between GB and Northern Ireland and then from Northern Ireland into the EU through Ireland. There are definite anecdotal benefits to the style of that relationship. What we need to do is look at how we can take some of the positive impacts that the economy is having in ROI and draw some of that up, particularly in areas where they are at capacity or the growth is so significant that there are opportunities for growth beyond the borders of Ireland. We then need to think about how we facilitate that and how we can have a competitive advantage; in so many ways, we are at a disadvantage where it matters—in terms of taxation, benefits through R&D and things like that. We still retain a very competitive edge in wages and wage growth, and in our expertise, skills, universities and R&D facilities. We still have the land availability. I am conscious of what Gavin said about planning. Although that is challenging in Northern Ireland, it is equally challenging in the south. When we have been talking to investors more recently, and they are considering a facility on the western frontiers of Europe, whether it be in Northern Ireland or in the Republic, it has been a competitive process. Multiple sites are involved. You are trying to put your best case forward, and it often comes down to the relationship that you can build and the speed at which you can meet the expectations of the client. Certainly, those are some of the benefits we have seen in how we try to do things in Northern Ireland, particularly in Antrim and Newtownabbey, to try to facilitate that development. For me, the relationship is very strong. There are obvious positive impacts of that cross-border relationship. It is about how we continue to build and strengthen those.

That nimbleness, or the lack of it, must inhibit your taking of some of these opportunities.

I suppose it does to an extent. To build on what Alison said, Antrim and Newtownabbey take a slightly different approach in terms of our planning function. We have taken it as a service to a client, as opposed to a statutory process that they have to go through, even though that is what it is. We often encourage very early engagement with them. Quite often, we are the No. 1 authority in Northern Ireland, and we often overperform, in terms of our target of 30 weeks for major development. We have taken a different approach in Antrim and Newtownabbey in how we see planning and how it sits alongside economic development. We have that package, and we are very confident in it, in terms of the support we can give anybody coming to look at Northern Ireland as a location. Don’t get me wrong, there are statutory partners that need to support that too, but we take a slightly different view on it, from that perspective. There is no doubt that all the other challenges that we have referenced in this session make our competing pace slightly more difficult.

Is the Dublin-Belfast economic corridor, which is a success, more of a success for the south than for the north? Is it being leveraged enough by the north?

I am not sure whether it is being leveraged enough, but I would certainly suggest that it is a success. I am thinking of the towns along it—Lisburn, Dromore, Banbridge, Newry and so on. Certainly, they would get uplift from shoppers coming from ROI to Newry, the Boulevard in Banbridge, or on down to Lisburn and so on. So, yes, it has been a success, but you could always do more.

What more do we need to do?

Just to add a bit on the agility and what more we need to do, it is probably fair to say that the Dublin-Belfast economic corridor is still at a relatively early stage of development. It has not yet had any real weight around policy change or difference. It is much more focused on co-operation, which is obviously a useful first step. Probably a more relevant consideration is the relationship that was originally the Northwest Gateway initiative, between Donegal and Derry, which has enshrined 25 to 30-plus years of economic investment and cross-border co-operation. Certainly, both those places would indicate that there have been very significant benefits to establishing a formal relationship. It has allowed them to do joint trade missions to the United States and elsewhere, and joint skills initiatives, and it has enabled them to work in a very practical cross-border way, using the border and not seeing it as an impediment. The challenges that the Dublin-Belfast economic corridor will have include its distance—it is fairly lengthy—and the fact that it has a very strong player at each end, so you need to ensure that the people in between are not squeezed out. I want to make one point about agility, which it is important that we do not overlook. Money greases the wheels greatly. The economy in the Republic of Ireland has been a success story for a good number of years. The Taoiseach recently announced a further €1 billion in shared island initiatives, many of which will directly contribute to economic growth, productivity and all other enabling factors. It is very easy to be agile when you have money at your disposal. We need to show that we can put the structures in place so that when the money follows, decisions can be taken quickly. The other practical issue, in terms of the proximity, and one of the challenges in the context of the Republic of Ireland, is that we are losing people across all sectors—medics, lawyers, accountants, engineers, planners and building control surveyors. People are now routinely choosing to work in the Republic of Ireland, as opposed to Northern Ireland, mainly for financial reasons. That is happening across the 11 council areas. Traditionally, we would have experienced that in very border communities, but now it is happening in Belfast and elsewhere. That is a risk, because as soon as we move away from practical cross-border co-operation into almost a “threatening” partner, there can be a concern about how economic development can be delivered in the future.

At the risk of making a very brief supplementary comment, I have to reference the fact that East Border Region is 50 years old this year. It essentially takes in three councils in the Republic of Ireland and three councils in Northern Ireland, right the way along the Belfast-Dublin economic corridor. It certainly has been a similar driver to what was referenced by Alison in the north-west of the island. I think that groups and organisations such as those have to have their place—the positive work that they do on a daily basis in terms of cross-border co-operation has to be recognised. Thank you for indulging me on that one, Chair.

For the sake of inclusion, I would just reference ICBAN as well.

Specifically on hospitality, there is not always a fair consideration of its contribution to the economy. I think it is nearly seen as discretionary spend, as opposed to a key economic enabler, and that is regrettable. I do not think enough has been done at Northern Ireland level to map what the actual disparities mean now, and when money is tightening more generally and labour supply is becoming extremely difficult for all in the hospitality industry, particularly in border communities, not least because of Brexit, those are changes that those companies are taking on every day. I know we do not like making special cases, but there does need to be an argument as to why it is quite different dealing on an island where you have a very different market economy, in some cases 5 miles away.

I will reference one example in Lagan Valley, in my own DEA, and that is the fact that 25 or 30 traders in Dromore got together of their own volition and put together a Dromore trading map. They were saying, “Dromore is here; Dromore is open for business,” and how. That was their attempt to get some of the tens of thousands of cars that drive up and down the dual carriageway on a daily basis to go into Dromore and see what is there. So there will always be, Sorcha, what the individual businesses can do. That is good from an entrepreneurial point of view. It is good from an innovation point of view. We forget that at our peril. As someone who drives the A1 to my DEA on virtually a daily basis, I totally understand that it is not fit for purpose and is a danger. The sooner that it is completed, the better. Let’s hope that we do not fall foul of the Climate Change Act (Northern Ireland) 2022 in terms of the A5 and so on. Let’s hope that the work is expedited and completed. Apart from that, it is down to each individual council to say, “Here is ABC” or “Here is Newry, Mourne and Down. We are open for business.” Again, it is about nimbleness. It is about how councils can use their resources to basically advertise themselves, to flaunt what they have in their borough. It would be those types of thoughts that would come to my mind, Sorcha.

I will briefly add a couple of things. First, I think it is important to note that the A5/N2 is a trans-European network; this is not just about the A1. As Members will be aware, we do not have an investment strategy yet. One difficulty in the absence of that is that everything is a piecemeal consideration and, indeed, what was the regional development strategy is long out of date. So we have a scenario, particularly if you look at something like the A1, potentially straddling a number of council areas, where people are at various stages on their local development plan and trying to make the best assumption around land requirements and so on, in the absence of an overall agreed strategy. Secondly, I don’t think that at Northern Ireland level we are considering economic impact, when we are looking at infrastructure schemes, in the ways that perhaps have been seen elsewhere, including in the Republic of Ireland. That might start to unlock some decisions. You rightly highlight the safety aspects, Sorcha, and interestingly, it is safety that has ultimately trumped on the A5, even though that had started out being an economic argument, which we would still suggest is the requirement.

In relation to the A5, I think the judicial proceedings indicated that it is compatible with the ’22 Act; it is departmental bungling that has got us to this point. I suppose that is a story running through some of the issues. At the risk of getting you in trouble, Tim, I thought you made very practical and astute comments on north-south aspects as well—I won’t tell Gavin you said them!

I’m all for practical north-south.

I just want to come back on some of those and maybe draw out some of your comments, Alison. Obviously, yours is a border region, so it is most astute, but clearly the island economy is vital for all parts of the region. You mentioned, and I was going to ask about, an investment strategy and, I suppose, the failure in Stormont to look on anything at the medium term. Notwithstanding the absence of an investment strategy, are we leaning into the opportunities that the island economy provides? Do you think that, for example, the investment agencies are sufficiently tooled up to take advantage of dual market access and so on, or are there actions that you think Stormont and then also the UK Government can take to reduce some of the barriers to trade? Also, I presume that you will have a lot of people in your district—frontier workers, in effect—who are working in the Republic for economic reasons, because the pay and conditions are better, but also because that is just where their business takes them. I know that there are real barriers. Are there wins we can make there, to make it more seamless for people perhaps to live and contribute in Fermanagh but also to live an economic life in the rest of the island?

Taking the latter question first, certainly there has been some work done at a broader level, for example by the Centre for Cross Border Cooperation, on taxation, and there is scope for things that can and should be done to simplify some taxation models for frontier workers. We are progressing some work on the direct impact to us as a council, but also on where the hinterland of influence might be. One area of work that has been done, I think quite effectively, across the border corridor has been around rural hubs, which were established largely as a result of covid but have meant that people can work nearer to their home irrespective of which side of the border they live on. As to whether we are leaning in as effectively as we could around relationships, from a council perspective, I suppose it has always been very much the norm for us, because our hinterland is Cavan, Monaghan, Leitrim, Sligo and Donegal. We have established relationships. The shared island funding has encouraged much greater collaboration on a cross-border level for other councils, but also between, for example, Invest Northern Ireland and Enterprise Ireland. InterTradeIreland would obviously have worked in this space for a long time, but Invest has certainly been working in it more recently. On Tourism NI, just prior to Christmas we had the announcement from the Economy Minister that the “Ireland’s hidden heartlands” tourism brand will be extended to County Fermanagh, which has been very much welcomed by hospitality and all our providers. Again, it is the practical steps that can make a difference. Where we could probably do more is around the metrics that we use. We tend to different datasets from the different agencies as to what is beneficial. We tend to use different times of the year for monitoring, and we are often 12 or 18 months out. It is hard to demonstrate meaningful progress if you are not starting from the same baseline.

Back to your point about agility, really. Obviously, businesses want to trade in the north, south, east and west as well. Gavin referenced the challenges that that really positive Encirc facility is facing. Is there more that the UK Government could be doing as well? Notwithstanding some of the Brexit frictions, do you have any feedback on the east-west trade aspect?

I suppose the overall principle in terms of trade is that less friction is always better. Further than that, I would not really have very much else to say—just that the aim has to be as unfettered trade and movement of goods as possible.

The main feedback we get—unsurprisingly for an island—is that the cost of getting off the island, irrespective of any barriers, intended or otherwise, is the real challenge and that cost is growing.

On the north-south thing, no, we are not leveraging the opportunities. I think that has probably come across from what Alison has said as well. There is an opportunity to explore how we cluster. I go back—I know I am very selfish—to my AMIC hat and what we are doing with that facility. That will be not only the best-in-class facility in Northern Ireland, but probably the best-in-class facility on the island. In the same way that we are looking at Sheffield and what the Catapults are doing there in terms of that facility, and the growth and expansion of companies that have come because of that facility and all the expertise that comes with it, how can we do that for us, selfishly, on a whole-island scale and attract all the investment we can to the island more broadly? On east-west, I agree with Tim: it is just about simplification. The smoother we make the process and the more streamlined the guidance, the better—particularly for us with such a logistics and distribution base and the majority still coming east-west. Because it is a sector that Invest do not support through their strategy, it often falls on the likes of councils and local government to try to support transport and logistics as far as we can. Anything that we can do to streamline that further would be good.

Thank you, Steven, Alison and Tim, for your time today. It has been an excellent session.