A very warm welcome to seventh evidence session in our pensioner poverty inquiry. This time, we are operating from Cardiff in Wales. It is wonderful to be here and particularly to welcome our witnesses this morning. We have Rhian Bowen-Davies, the Older People’s Commissioner for Wales, Vicki Lloyd from Age Cymru, and Faye Patton from Care & Repair Cymru. Would you like to introduce yourselves and the organisations that you represent?

Bore da. I am Rhian Bowen-Davies, the Older People’s Commissioner for Wales. My role as the commissioner is to offer an independent voice and to be a champion for the rights of older people here in Wales.

Morning. I am Vicki Lloyd, chief executive of Age Cymru. We are the national charity for older people in Wales and we work with our counterparts: with Age UK across the rest of the UK and our local Age Cymru partners in Wales.

Hi there. My name is Faye, and I am head of policy and insights at Care & Repair Cymru. Care & Repair is made up of 13 agencies across Wales, and we are essentially a home adaptation and home improvement service, specifically supporting older people who live in their own homes or in the private rented sector.

Lovely. We all have some questions for you, and I am going to kick off. What do you see as the issues around pensioner poverty in Wales, compared with the UK, and the drivers behind them?

There are a number of points to make about older people and poverty here in Wales. Wales has proportionately more older people than other parts of the UK, and it is projected that by 2030 33% of the total population of Wales will be over the age of 60. Nearly one in six older people in Wales lives in relative income poverty, and that is really important to bear in mind when we are having the conversation this morning. The levels of disability are higher in Wales than in England, so when we are thinking about Wales and our older population and about those older people who are also disabled, we have a higher proportion here in Wales. Also—I am sure this is something that my colleagues on the panel will speak about today—Wales has the oldest housing stock. We have to bear that in mind, particularly when we are thinking about older people’s experiences of fuel poverty. It is also important to recognise that poverty experienced by older people will be felt more intensely by some groups of older people than others, and particularly by those who have lost out as a result of the change to the winter fuel payment. We need to think specifically about women as well. They might not be receiving the full state pension and may also have been impacted by WASPI decisions. Hopefully that gives an indication of older people’s experiences of poverty here in Wales as distinct from those in the rest of the UK.

I completely agree with everything that Rhian said. I just have a couple of other points. The national survey for Wales recently reported that 25% of 65 to 74-year-olds say they will sometimes or always struggle to pay their bills, as do 17% of those over 75. Also, 8% of pensioners living in Wales are in material deprivation; the figure is higher than for the other nations of the UK. The other point that I think is really important is about activity rates in Wales and what is coming in the future. Wales has the lowest employment rate for those aged 50 to 64, and that impacts the way we are set up for later life as well. Part of it will be about the health of people in Wales. Rhian has already mentioned disability, but we often hear about people in Wales being less well than their counterparts. Also, there is the number of carers; Wales has one of the highest proportions of unpaid carers.

I will pick up on the housing element. The last housing conditions survey in Wales was conducted in 2017. On Friday, the Welsh Government announced that they are going to bring that back, so that is good, because the results are a little bit out of date now. That survey found that one in five homes in Wales has a category 1 hazard present. We are in the homes—last year, we delivered 67,000 services, which equates to about 50,000 households that we were physically in, because we are a home visiting service—and we can see that, within our client group, the figure is so much higher than one in five homes with a category 1 hazard present. By that I mean things like damp and mould; we are seeing increasing calls about that. Category 1 hazards can be fall risks as well, so we fit home adaptations to try to prevent falls in the home. When we are talking about pensioner poverty in Wales, it is absolutely essential to think about those wider determinants of health here. I talk about the fact that we are seeing increasing levels of disrepair, but we are also seeing increasingly that older people cannot afford to make the repairs. The reliance of our service on charitable funding to help older people to make home improvements has increased by over 130% in the last few years, and in that time the number of those older people who are able to pay privately has gone down. You can see the trajectory that we are potentially on in terms of housing: homes are in worse condition, and it is harder to make home improvements as well.

Thank you so much for that. May I pick up on something raised in other sessions? We have heard that pensioners’ experience of poverty tends to mirror their experience during their working life. Are you finding that too? Are you now seeing a reflection of the poverty that people have experienced during their working lives borne out?

We are certainly seeing a correlation, but another thing that we are seeing here in Wales at the moment is the depth of poverty that older people are experiencing. The percentages that we see from some of our policy units here in Wales may not be changing that much, but we are seeing that depth of poverty and desperation that older people find themselves in, and they are needing to seek support. Some lived experiences that have been shared with me recently include accounts of older people who are not eating during the day, not heating their homes because they are afraid of how they will pay their bills, and cannot afford some of the basic items in their homes, like beds, and are sleeping on the floor. That is the depth of poverty that people are experiencing. We know the impact that will have not only on physical health but on mental health, in terms of their experiences of social isolation and loneliness. We also know the long-term impact it will have on our public services here in Wales in terms of the cost to our NHS, the cost to social care and the cost of poor housing, which Faye mentioned, to our NHS.

We are hearing that very much through our advice services. Previously, we would often get to income when advising older people on the issues that they came to us with, but over the last year, income, finance and the cost of living been a presenting issue rather than something that comes out from a holistic approach. The point about desperation is one that we are hearing very much from the frontline services. People who are new to advice are really shocked at the level of desperation that we are hearing from older people. I agree entirely with what Rhian just said about what people are saying. We are hearing about people going to bed early because they cannot afford the heating in the evening. People are saying that they are cutting down on their food or fuel and are self-limiting what they can do. Connectedness to the community is also coming out; people are saying that they cannot afford to do the things that they once wanted to.

Briefly, if you do not mind—this may be a tall order—will you give your top two priorities in your roles, and your priorities for what you want to see from the Welsh Government and the UK Government?

In terms of poverty specifically?

Specifically on dealing with pensioner poverty.

First for me would be to reinstate the winter fuel payment as a universal entitlement. If it is not universal, then we risk vulnerable individuals missing out. I have been in post since the end of September, and the winter fuel payment is something that older people are speaking to me about time and again. It was an absolute lifeline for some people, even if it meant putting the heating on in one room over the winter. We are already speaking with older people who are concerned and extremely anxious about what will happen this winter now that they have just been through their first winter. For me, the priority would be reinstating that. If it is not reinstated fully, then we need to look at the cliff-edge situation of pension credit and at how we extend the eligibility threshold for pension credit, so that people are not in a position where they are missing out by pence or pounds—and they are not only missing out on their pension credit; they are missing out on all the additional entitlements that come with it. For me, it would be winter fuel payment or, secondly, addressing that cliff edge urgently, and doing that in time for that announcement to be made way before winter this year.

The second point for me, building on that, is capacity to support people to claim what is there. We know in Wales that we still have so many older people not getting what they are entitled to. Dealing with the cliff edge is really important, but we need to make sure that people are getting the money that is rightfully theirs too. There need to be specific services for older people who are offline; it goes beyond awareness raising.

I agree entirely with those points, especially on the pension credit cliff edge. Perhaps it is time to look at how we frame pension credit. A lot of older people perhaps do not realise that you can own your own home, have a small private pension, have savings and be on attendance allowance, for example—so your income can be slightly higher—and still be eligible for pension credit. Often, it is quite a difficult benefit to explain to someone why they might be eligible, so I think we need to have a look at how we frame it. To add something different to the discussion, looking at introducing a social tariff in time for winter would be really important. We did some research at Care & Repair where we looked at our client base and the kinds of homes that they were living in, and we found that only 12% of our clients have an EPC A to C. Our clients are living in very energy-inefficient properties. In the longer term we need to address the housing stock and its thermal efficiency, but right now we need to lower bills, and a social tariff could be one of the ways to do that.

Thank you so much.

What the strategy does offer us is a cross-governmental, cross-policy, holistic strategy. For me, as commissioner here in Wales, it gives me a tool to scrutinise the Welsh Government’s progress and provides accountability for the progress that is being made. It is worth noting that it is a rights-based strategy, and it looks at social justice equality as well as the policy areas that we would expect it to look at, like health, social care and housing, across Government. On the successes of the strategy, I would certainly point to how the Welsh Government have implemented age-friendly communities across Wales. When we are thinking about the wider determinants of health and looking at housing, transport, activity and spaces and places in our communities, the progress that has been made on age-friendly communities, with our partners who are now members of the World Health Organisation network—I am an affiliate member—that is something really tangible that we can point to as a success. We are also starting to see more progress on the preventive health agenda relating to older people, particularly around responsiveness to falls. There are some things that we would point to as showing progress, but we still have a long way to go, so I certainly would not want us to stop the momentum. We need to continue that momentum and the platform that we have. What has been recognised about the strategy, certainly by the Women and Equalities Committee in the UK Parliament, is that it offers a cross-Government framework so that progress can be measured and scrutinised. We are still waiting for the response to the Committee’s report, but the UK Government have been asked to look at that and how it can be implemented across England.

For me, it is having a consistent vehicle for giving focus to older people’s issues. To build on everything that Rhian said, it is keeping an older person-specific focus, because older people’s issues are often lost or hidden among generic policy areas. That framework for age-friendly communities, and a framework for engaging local government specifically on older people’s issues, has been really important. The World Health Organisation age-friendly network, again, is about getting information to older people. It is something that brings older people into a conversation with local government and Government to find information about what they are entitled to and all the other policy areas.

As Rhian and Vicki have said, it is cross-governmental, so it brings together different parts of Government, but it also links very well with other Welsh Government measures, such as the Well-being of Future Generations Act. We are able to look at the wellbeing of future generations of older people in Wales, and that is really important for the preventive agenda, especially as we know that we have an ageing population. Externally, it also gives reassurance—obviously, I am coming from a charity perspective—to funders that the Government in Wales have committed long term to trying to improve the lives of older people across Wales. That is quite powerful for us to be able to access resource as well.

In terms of advice?

I manage our Hospital to a Healthier Home service, which is about getting older people who are clinically optimised—those who are well enough to go home but cannot, because of a housing issue—out of hospital. We fit adaptations and complete home repairs. For example, we ensure that no older person who is referred to the service is going home to a home with no working heating or no water. That service is funded locally through health boards or regional partnership boards in Wales. Tying in with the strategy for an ageing society, within the funding mechanisms of a regional partnership board in Wales, for example, one of the focus areas that they have is older people. That shows how the different parts of the strategy, and the Government and the various boards that we have, interact as a result of the strategy.

The detail is yet to come, but I think it is a really positive recognition of those wider determinants of health—the social justice elements. It is a really positive link to the wellbeing of future generations work that Faye mentioned. The Future Generations Commissioner has put preventive work at the heart of his priorities. Working alongside the Marmot principles can only be positive for older people, because one of the things that we are really keen to see is that shift to prevention for older people, whether it is around falls or income security. So many of the issues come together; if older people are living on low incomes, it is worse for their health and their mental health. I think it can only be positive, but the detail is yet to come.

I would echo that. I welcome it as a positive decision here in Wales, but for me it is about understanding the detail and what it is going to mean for older people, what changes it will bring and when we can expect to see those changes. One thing for me is that older people lens. Whether we are thinking about Marmot, the wellbeing of future generations or UK policy, we need to think about age-proofing the policy decisions that are being made, and the cumulative effect that they have on older people. If we take winter fuel payment, for example, and WASPI, there are groups of individuals who will have been affected by both those decisions. Where is that oversight? What role could the equality unit within the UK Government be taking to ensure that we are age-proofing these decisions from a more cumulative perspective, and that the impact assessments take into account not just one policy decision, but things that are happening far more widely?

I have some questions about the role of the Older People’s Commissioner, but first, Faye, I have a quick follow-up to Jo’s question about your work to get older people who are able to leave hospital home. Do you see a big difference between different localities in Wales?

In terms of—

Are some areas doing it better than others?

That is quite a difficult question. Hospital to a Healthier Home operates in five out of seven health boards in Wales. There has been a lot of work through the Welsh Government around preventing people from going to hospital, but also getting them out. Within the six goals for urgent and emergency care, for example, goals 5 and 6 are about trying to plan for hospital discharge at the point of admission, and bringing the third sector into that. Through the regional partnership board that I mentioned, there is a regional integration fund—that is across Wales, irrespective of which health board you are in—and 20% of it is ringfenced for charities. In a way, that implies some kind of uniformity across Wales. There are always pockets of good practice, but we know that Hospital to a Healthier Home reduces an older person’s stay in hospital by an average of six days, which, because of the number of people we are supporting, can make a really big difference cumulatively.

It is interesting, because in England it is much more devolved around local authorities and you see really big variations.

Yes.

Thank you. Moving on to the role of the Older People’s Commissioner, the obvious question is what difference you think the role has made in Wales.

It is worth noting that Wales was the first country in the world to have an Older People’s Commissioner. It is a unique role in its ability to uphold and protect the rights of older people. The independence from Government and from sectors here in Wales enables me to bring the voices and experiences of older people to inform policy decisions in Wales. What difference does it make? I can draw on some examples both from myself and from my predecessors. I am the fourth commissioner in Wales. We serve a term of six to seven years, and we can serve only one term. It gives continuity and stability for a period of time for older people in Wales to know who their commissioner is. The role has legal powers: I can review decisions of public bodies and governments in Wales and scrutinise and hold them to account around those decisions. The power to review is a legal one. I am also able to issue section 12 guidance, to which public bodies in Wales must pay regard in their work. In recent years, we have published section 12 guidance on digital inclusion. That is one of the things I would be mindful of as part of your inquiry: that when we think about some of the options, we do not push this to digital and digitalisation first when we are thinking about older people’s experiences. I recently issued my first section 12 guidance on ensuring that older people have a meaningful voice in consultations that may impact their lives or communities. The previous commissioners were able to conduct the largest review of care homes in Wales. As a result, guidance has been changed and there have been changes to practice. Using the legal powers judiciously has enabled us to create change in both policy and practice in Wales. That is a real change in how older people are experiencing services in Wales. Another example is that we did a big piece of work on access to GP practices, which is a constant theme that comes up with older people. As a result of that piece of work, we have managed to have changes made to the GP contract in Wales. Real changes can happen. It is about independence, being a really strong advocate for older people and ensuring that rights are upheld. During covid, the role of the commissioner was significant in looking at whether the human rights of older people were being disregarded, particularly when we were looking at care home situations. There are real examples of the difference the role can make. I hope that older people see the role as a role for them in ensuring that they have a voice in policymaking here in Wales and in services.

I suspect that having the legal clout helps with this, but is it easy getting buy-in, because you are working across different Departments?

Absolutely. The legal powers mean that this role is a significant role that can hold to account. People can see that accountability happening as part of the role. The Women and Equalities Committee has examined whether the UK Government should be looking at a commissioner for England. That has been recommended in the report: that England should look at the experiences in Wales, at the difference that the commissioner has been able to make and at how that would fit within the Government strategy.

Presumably you would agree with those recommendations.

Absolutely. We have a commissioner in Northern Ireland. Having other commissioners across the UK would bring the ability to work across nations, independently and separately from Government, to ensure that the voices and experiences of older people are heard in our policymaking.

From a third sector point of view, I endorse everything that Rhian has said. The convening power of the commissioner is important as well. We saw that through covid: the commissioner was able to bring people from cross-sector organisations together to support the messages around change and to help to get information out to older people. It was a real point of focus for us here in Wales. I have had the benefit of working with four commissioners, and they have all had that convening power. They have all provided a point of focus for older people. It has been really important, as Rhian says, in creating change.

I agree entirely. It demonstrates, not just to policymakers but to older people themselves, a commitment to older people in Wales. When you think about pensioner poverty and in general about the evidence that this inquiry has received, quite a lot of it is about how older people are perceived, both by themselves and by the wider public. Having an Older People’s Commissioner is a strong statement that in Wales we value older people. It would be great for that to be replicated across the UK nations.

Rhian, you have called for more meaningful equality impact assessments and age-proofing of policy proposals. Would you like to see any changes in how the DWP assesses the impact of its policies? Are there any particular policies that would benefit from that kind of review?

I made a point in response to an earlier question about looking at the cumulative effects of policy decisions on older people, so that they are not disproportionately impacted by them. At the moment, older people have the sense that they are disproportionately impacted by the decisions that have been made in the last 12 months. That is having a significant and severe impact on their day-to-day lives. We need to think about how we can streamline some of the DWP’s processes and make them easier for individuals to access. On the point about not being digital-only, older people have a right to have information and support through non-digital means. One of the messages that has come out of your previous evidence sessions is the importance of face-to-face contact and face-to-face support to enable older people to access entitlements. We could think about some of the language that we use. We speak about “benefits”, but maybe we could use the word “entitlements” more, so that older people’s dignity is respected through these processes and so that we start to break down some of the barriers from the stigma and embarrassment of having to ask for and look for additional support. In addition to the streamlining, the DWP could look at passporting benefits and entitlements, so that if a person is applying for one entitlement and is eligible for others, they can be passported rather than having to go through the other processes. Simplifying, streamlining, passporting, being very aware of the language that we use, making sure that it does not become digital—those would be some of the calls. We can look to Wales, with its benefits charter, to see how we are working with the DWP and other partners to streamline Welsh benefits.

Thank you very much.

We have already heard some examples of the impact that the cuts to winter fuel payments had on individual pensioner households, such as cutting back on having warm meals and going to bed early. Could you elaborate a little on the broader impact that the cuts have had on systems, such as the health and social care system and other systems of Government support?

We made a point earlier about having the oldest housing stock in Europe. If older people are living in cold homes, there is more likely to be an impact on certain types of illness, such as respiratory and cardiovascular illness, which increases the likelihood of people having to access their GP or be admitted to hospital. Faye spoke about hazards such as trips and falls in people’s homes. There is a physical and mental health impact of living in a cold home. Not being able to warm your home has a significant impact. Public Health Wales has estimated that housing causes the NHS in Wales £90 million in additional costs. We know the cost to our NHS of cold homes and excess winter deaths. There are costed implications of the cuts.

Are you concerned that the savings that the Government claim to be making by cutting the winter fuel payment will not end up being delivered because of all the consequences of those policies on other areas such as healthcare and housing?

Absolutely, and that is a point that I have made to the Welsh Government and Senedd when we have looked at fuel poverty in particular. I am thinking of the extreme measures to which older people are going to manage their day-to-day situations. That has an impact on older people’s independence, their ability to socialise and their connectivity to their communities, as well as a wider cost impact on our public services.

One of the criticisms of the winter fuel payment was that it was universal and was not targeted at those who were perhaps in most need. Do you or the panel have a view on how support could better be targeted and what that may look like?

When the winter fuel payment was universal, it was reaching everybody, so it was reaching our most vulnerable individuals. Very few people have said to me that they did not need the winter fuel payment. On the whole, the older people I have spoken to have really experienced hardship as a result of missing out on the winter fuel payment. To go back to earlier responses, I think that if we are not making the winter fuel payment a universal payment, we need to look at the cliff edge in terms of pension credit and how we increase the threshold for eligibility for pension credit, or whether there needs to be a tapered approach so that those who are missing out by pence and pounds are not missing out more widely on pension credit and the benefits that come with it. Those would be my key points on the winter fuel payment.

I endorse what Rhian has said. The only thing to add to that, potentially, is expanding the eligibility for other benefits, perhaps including housing benefit, council tax support and attendance allowance. The universality of the winter fuel payment meant that it reached those who needed it most. My worry about any restriction on it is that it then does not go to those who need it most; it does not go to the people who do not know what to apply for or who to ask for help. Those are the people who are most in need.

To pick up on that point, over recent years there have been a number of campaigns to raise awareness of pension credit and other entitlements that older people may have. We have done a lot of raising awareness. Actually, this is about what proactive support can now be offered to people to support them to apply, and that is where the targeted approach comes in, whether it involves working with DWP data or wider data. We have a pilot here in Wales at the moment—Policy in Practice is working with 12 of our local authorities—to look at the data that we already hold and target the support. While that support might be phone calls and letters, it is the face-to-face support that can really support individuals. To go back to the point that Vicki made earlier, that would mean additional resources specifically for our third sector to be able to respond to the increase in demand and the time it takes to provide that face-to-face support. Even if we changed the eligibility now, we would be likely to have an issue of trust in the system because of what happened last year, so it is for those individuals who have lost that trust and who still experience stigma and embarrassment that that additional support would be required.

Last year, we had a 100% increase on the year before in the number of pension credit inquiries, following the winter fuel payment announcement, so demand for that support is definitely there.

If you don’t mind, I will come in on face-to-face support as well. It is so important. Although it might be more expensive to run, what you get in return for a face-to-face visit is worth so much more than a letter or that kind of approach. For example, last year we raised £12.5 million across Wales in unclaimed benefits. That is not even our main service. We offer home adaptations and home improvements, which we did to a value of over £21 million, and our service did not cost anywhere near that to run. The money you put into face-to-face services gets you so much more back out for the person and for wider society, because often when those people receive their pension credit or whatever it is, they are spending that money in the community. Yes, there might be additional costs to face-to-face support, but actually the benefits are so much wider.

Let us move on to other forms of support with energy costs—cold weather payments, the warm home discount scheme and so on. What are your views on whether that is an effective package? Have you any ideas on how it could potentially be expanded?

Here in Wales, very often we will be directed to the support that is available here. There are specific programmes of support available for warm homes, but we also have the discretionary assistance fund here in Wales, and that will quite often be referred to as an option for support for older people. The discretionary assistance fund is for those in absolute crisis; we know that the eligibility criteria for DAF are not really appropriate for older people. The numbers of older people accessing that fund are very low. For the year from May 2023 to 2024, only 1% of applicants were over the age of 70, and only 5% were aged 60 to 69. Although it is an option, its appropriateness for older people is really low, as is older people’s ability to access it, because of the narrow eligibility criteria. Even if an older person were in absolute crisis, they can claim just over £50 for one application, and they can only apply three times within a 12-month period. Even if they were in crisis, that will not meet what they have lost as a result of the removal of the winter fuel payment. That shows that we have older people who are living in severe hardship in Wales, in terms of poverty, but that severe hardship does not necessarily equate to their being able to access that crisis fund.

Specifically on energy, do you have a view on whether there should be a social tariff-type system to support older people? Many people who are in financial distress are often on prepaid meters, so that is an additional cost. What are your thoughts?

I think Faye mentioned the social tariff earlier. Although it is something to explore, what we have seen with social tariffs for broadband and internet is that that awareness is not there, so it has not necessarily had the impact on access that we may have expected. That is not to say that it should not be explored, but we would need to look at a concerted campaign of awareness-raising around that if it were to be offered. Faye, would you like to come in?

Yes, thank you—I was champing at the bit. One of the biggest problems that our clients face when it comes to their energy costs is the standing charge. We already see a lot of clients who are self-rationing their energy. You can reduce their unit rate through a social tariff, but it will not actually make a huge difference to them in the immediate term, because they are already not using that much energy anyway. For us, a social tariff would have to look at the standing charge as well. You mentioned prepayment meters. Let us say that you get emergency credit for your prepayment meter; with the VAT and the standing charge, you have already lost about half of that £10 anyway. It is not actually paying for that much energy. At the moment, the standing charge is about 53p for electric and 33p for gas. In a month, you have already spent £25 before you even turn on a lightbulb. For older people living in fuel poverty, that is a huge amount, especially now that the kinds of support that they might have been getting have been cut back. There are some really good examples in Wales, through Welsh Water, around social tariffs and proactively engaging with customers who it knows are struggling. It might notice that a customer has got into arrears and will therefore proactively reach out to those people. That is really important. In general, energy companies only contact someone when they are in debt, whereas Welsh Water takes the approach of pausing bills, for example. You can have a three-month pause on your bill if you get into debt arrears. It can also introduce smart meter caps so that you are not paying more than, I think, £43 a month; if you use less, you get a refund. It is not just about debt repayment plans. It is also about proactively supporting consumers. In general, there is a lot more that energy companies could do, like Welsh Water has done in Wales, to support vulnerable consumers.

I should probably declare an interest: I used to work for a water company before I was an MP. Hafren Dyfrdwy, which is part of the Severn Trent group, has a similar social tariff scheme. It is very successful in the east midlands in getting take-up. What scope is there for collaboration between the utility companies—particularly water, energy and broadband providers—to share best practice in how they recruit to their social tariffs those who are most vulnerable?

Immediately, the idea of sharing customers on the priority services register springs to mind. That would be a really good mechanism across different utilities to share information and target support to customers.

That is a good idea.

You mentioned that there are issues here in Wales with older, more poorly insulated homes and that the number of homes with EPC A to C ratings is far lower. What would it take to address this? Do these homes tend to be in the social housing sector, or are they private? Are there any themes among some of those colder, poorly insulated homes?

We support people who live in the owner occupied and private rented sector, but over 90% of the people we support own their own home. That is the group of people I am talking about. As I mentioned, the ability of people within our client group to make upgrades to their homes has severely reduced in recent years. In Wales, we have the warm homes programme, which is in addition to the UK support that is available. The warm homes programme targets low-income households who own their own home and helps them to make energy efficiency improvements to their property. There are some challenges with that. We need to look at the types of property that we have in Wales. For example, we have a lot of solid-wall farmhouses, where certain interventions are not going to work. Similarly, in the valleys communities, we have a lot of terraced houses where you could not have an air source heat pump, because you cannot get it 3 metres away from the property. We need to look a little more at what is appropriate not just for the house, but for the person living in it. We had an example of an air source heat pump being put in a property, but it was the property with an old lady in Carmarthenshire who was living with dementia. She had no idea how to use that air source heat pump, and eventually ended up spending more money on their energy, because they were going out and buying electric heaters. Whatever way we go about doing this, we need to look not only at the property, the EPC rating and so forth, but at the person who is living in it and what the impact on them might be.

Rhian, as the Older People’s Commissioner, what specific challenges have you been trying to look at?

Earlier this year, we gave evidence to the Senedd inquiry into fuel poverty. That was looking at how effective our programmes in Wales had been and what we were calling for. As Faye referenced in her first response around the housing survey, we need to really understand what our housing stock in Wales looks like at the moment. We know that housing is a significant wider determinant of health, and we are anticipating greater numbers of older people living in private rented accommodation. When we think about fuel poverty and what private rental will mean for individuals, we need to be mindful that many older people are on fixed incomes, so food inflation or private rents being increased makes it really challenging for people to manage.

I think the same. The concern we hear a lot from people in private rented accommodation, and renters per se, is about the quality of the housing stock and the ability to heat their home. Like Faye, our concern is putting the right measures in place. Air source heat pumps are not for everybody, and we hear a lot of worried older people who do not understand the technology and are really worried about the implications for them. They worry about it costing more rather than helping them. It is important to have choice and to have the right support for people, so they understand what they are being asked to switch to.

That is really helpful; thank you. What are the strengths and weaknesses of the discretionary assistance fund that you have here in Wales?

For us, the weakness is probably pretty much as Rhian explained earlier: its eligibility criteria are not constructed for older people. Only 1% of people over the age of 70 accessed the fund last year. It does not replace the income that people have lost through the winter fuel payment, for example, and the replacement household goods that people can access through it are sometimes not suitable for older people—I think due to the level of funding available. I know through our advice service, and our partner advice services, that they are just not able to make older people’s needs match the eligibility criteria. We are supporting very few people to access it, so I think there needs to be something that is much more directly tailored to older people’s needs—something that is available offline as well as online, so that people can access it—and that clearly makes it obvious that an older person can be entitled to it.

As it is discretionary, who sets the criteria?

I believe it is the Welsh Government.

Yes.

Have you made representations on that basis?

Absolutely, on a number of occasions, about the appropriateness of the fund for older people, the eligibility criteria being too narrow and the numbers of older people who are accessing it. We have actually called for a specific fund, as Vicki outlined, that would address older people who are in severe hardship but do not meet the crisis eligibility of the discretionary assistance fund.

To what extent is it a postcode lottery? It feels like maybe it is a lottery based on the criteria rather than geographical postcode. What do we need to do to get the balance right between fairness and consistency to meet local needs, particularly of the older population?

The report that the Welsh Government publish on an annual basis on the discretionary assistance fund will demonstrate the evidence for what we have said: consistently, older people are not able to access the DAF across Wales. That is where there is a need for a specific fund for older people. Again, from a Welsh Government perspective, that would still be administered locally. It is right that it is administered locally, but look at the loss of the winter fuel payment. We know that Scotland and Northern Ireland are looking to make decisions around making some payments to older people. That is not the case here in Wales at the moment, so that would again go towards making the case that we need a specific fund for older people here in Wales.

Has some of the discretionary money been used to improve the amount of support from an advice point of view?

Wales has a single advice fund, which has been operating I think since 2020. It has just been re-let, so there is Welsh Government-funded advice, and it is all-age advice across Wales. I think that single advice fund is just going into its second phase now.

It is worth picking up that not all third sector providers will be receiving funding through the single advice fund. Some organisations will be supported through that fund to offer advice, but others are not, and still face increased demand for their advice services, and are not necessarily being funded to do that.

We have heard across this whole inquiry on pensioner poverty particularly about local welfare support being put on a longer-term sustainable footing. In England we have had seven rounds, I think, of the household support fund. What is needed in Wales? If the fund ended, what would the impact be?

As I said, in Wales we have that single advice fund. I think it is an all-age fund. I mentioned the Age Cymru increase in demand. Largely, the Age Cymru advice services are charitably delivered—they are not funded through things like the single advice fund—so they are managing those increases within charitable donations, in effect. Specific funding for older people’s advice would be something that we would be really keen to see, and something that is consistent as well, because when people are able to access pockets of funding for advice, it is very often short term. Advisers are really skilled and knowledgeable roles, and you cannot have consistent service on short-term funding. You need people who are clear in their post and able to deliver that on a longer-term basis.

Care & Repair’s core service is Welsh Government-funded. That is the rapid response adaptations programme and our caseworkers’ advice around home adaptations and income maximisation as part of that. That is essential because it means that, irrespective of where you live in Wales, you will receive the same service. There is no postcode lottery for rapid response adaptations. You can live in Gwynedd or Cardiff—it is the same. That is important because it means that we can then share good practice, and also because we have that core backing to develop locally. There are 12 agencies, which can also meet local need and go out for local pots of money and so forth. For example, in Powys we have Mamwlad, which is a service that specifically targets farmers, because there is a big farming community in Powys and sometimes it is difficult to engage them in advice services. Through that we are able to go out to auction marts and things like that. As a third sector organisation, it is so important to have some sort of stability and guarantee for your staff. Then, you can build your resilience in other ways by going out for local pots of money and so forth.

I wanted to come back to you, Faye, because Care & Repair in England has had a really difficult time keeping consistency across the services that it provides in England. It is quite nice to have a reflection of what is happening in Wales with that consistency, and what benefit that can give to the local population. That is really helpful.

Thank you. Gill German.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I want to turn back to the take-up of pension credit. You talked quite powerfully about the need for face-to-face support and how that is the most important thing to increase take-up. One of the things suggested in different Committee sessions has been local authorities being accountable for advice provision. What have you thought about that? We have spoken about the current capacity in the system within local authorities, which often either run their own services or commission third sector organisations. Do you think that is sufficient at the moment, particularly in areas where there are higher numbers of older people, where there may also be cost pressure for providing social care? Do you think that the capacity is there? It is all well and good making local authorities accountable, but are they actually in a position to be able to do so with pressures as they stand?

We are hearing that it is getting increasingly difficult to access local funding for advice services. I think that the capacity is probably not there. As you say, the pressures that are already there in social care may well account for it. I think that there is a strong role for working between the third sector and local government for those advice services. Local authorities will very often have information and data that the third sector does not, but the third sector can provide that trusted independent front door for an older person to go through. Very often we hear from older people that they are worried about claiming—if they put their head above the parapet and let someone have a look at their information, they are worried that something will be taken away, not that they will get something. That is where the third sector can provide that trusted intermediary role, to help people understand the process and that this is about supporting them, not taking something away. I think there is real value in working with the local authorities who have the data, which is why Rhian mentioned the data-sharing work that the Welsh Government are looking at as part of streamlining Welsh benefits. It will be interesting to see what value that can bring, and to look at passporting between benefits if the data is there. We are not asking people to give the same information time and again; we are giving them everything that this piece of information tells us that they are entitled to. Capacity is probably not there at the moment, and more could be done in that space.

Thank you. Rhian?

Diolch. It is worth highlighting the Welsh benefits charter, which was signed by all 22 local authorities, the Welsh Local Government Agency and Welsh Government back in January ’24. It brings local government together to raise awareness of take-up and look at how we can streamline benefits here in Wales and create a simpler, more consistent system. Just to pick up Vicki’s point, it is really important that the third sector is an equal partner in the conversation. It is trusted and works in individuals’ communities, and it is where older people are likely to turn for advice and support, so it is important to ensure that the third sector is resourced to provide that advice and assistance. The work that Policy in Practice is doing in Wales to identify what data local authorities hold and how we can better use it to target support is also really important.

We also have a Welsh benefits charter, which is a set of principles that advice givers have agreed to, which focuses on communicating to people in the way that is best for them—this links to what Rhian said about increasingly digitalised communication, which is not always the best thing. We also have a “no wrong door” approach, so that, within those groups locally, irrespective of where someone gets referred to, we have really good community links with different organisations, in order to make sure that people end up in the right place. If they go to an organisation that maybe is not the most appropriate to support them, they are not just turned away; they are referred to the correct organisation. That local network is really important. Local authorities obviously know their populations really well, as do third sector organisations in the community.

So joint working, as ever.

Yes.

I think that is one of the benefits of Wales, when we look at our geography and our partnerships. We are a small country, but that means that that join-up and collaboration can happen.

Diolch.

Before we come to a close, I want to ask you about older people who are just below the state pension age threshold—so, 60 to 65, and 66 and 67, shortly—and how you thought they had been affected. How has the Older People’s Commissioner been able to intervene on their behalf, if at all?

Anybody over the age of 60 can access my advice and assistance service as the Older People’s Commissioner, or they can contact me about any issues of concern to them. We are seeing a population who are working longer, because they have to because of their finances, or because they want to and choose to, but we are also seeing that population taking on greater caring responsibilities and having to manage any work they are doing. There is something to think about there in terms of our older population who are still working, and what flexibility could be offered from the employers’ perspective, so that individuals can stay in work and do the work that they really want to do, for as long as they want to do it, as well as flexibility around caring responsibilities. We have also seen data in recent research showing that three in five older people will enter poverty in later life because they have experienced a reduction in benefit income, rather than work-related income. The Office for Budget Responsibility recently found that the incapacity benefits caseload increased by 330,000 between 2008 and 2024, because of the increase in the state pension age. Again, coming back to an earlier point, we are increasing the state pension age, but that is increasing people’s applications for incapacity benefits because—this is one of the points that Vicki made—people do not feel well enough or are not able to work in that capacity. This also links to Wales becoming a Marmot nation. I am thinking about older people having good, fair work and—this brings us full circle—about ensuring that that work and those employment practices are not ageist and do not allow age discrimination in any way, so that older people have a choice of whether they want to work.

That is a really good point about employers. Have you seen a shift in attitudes in recent years from employers about ensuring that we can maximise the employment period for older people? They will not necessarily be able to do some of the hard work that people did in the past—I know I certainly could not—but are employers finding alternative jobs for people within the workforce?

It is an area that has been raised quite frequently with me as commissioner by older people themselves who feel they have experienced age discrimination in the workplace—not necessarily been offered the promotions, opportunities or training and development opportunities that other employees are having—and it is an area of work that I am keen to look at. I will be launching my strategy and work programme as commissioner tomorrow. An area I am really keen to look at is the opportunities and choices that older people are given in employment.

Fantastic. We look forward to reading that. I thank you so much, on behalf of the Select Committee, for coming along and providing your evidence to us today. I also thank the Welsh Government for hosting us in this lovely room. I will conclude today’s evidence session.